Australian Politics Forum - Islamonausea Rising in the West.

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #90 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:36am

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 10:35pm:

For the record, I don't feel persecuted by FDs prejudice against me.
Though I must say the level of bigotry (and I'm not really including FD in this category) against islam on this forum is rather confronting. However my experience in the real world is that this is not representative. For some reason this forum particularly seems to be a magnet for such types.

these are the views of most of aust society.

And you know this, how, exactly?

Quote:

people are more honest online as there is no retaliation

They are less constrained, thats for sure. That they feel they are anonymous is of course foolish.

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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #91 - May 9^th, 2013 at 12:39pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 12:56am:

Quote:

I prefer this website for Quran verses and are you saying the Saudis and 6 other countries are doing Islam all wrong?

It's all about interpretation and according to my copy of the Q'ran it says,

Quote:

There is no compulsion in religion...

I wouldn't say those nations are doing "it" wrong. Rather they have a different interpretation. Is it the right one? I'm sure they believe it is. I'm not an Islamic Scholar though, merely an interested observer. It's their country, they get to make the laws.

Quote:

Then do they not reflect upon the Quran? If it had been from any other than allah,they would have found within much contradiction.

All Holy books contradict themselves. It is often said you can find what ever you want in [insert Holy book of your choice] if you look hard enough.

You did not answer my question, 7 countries with Islam as the state religion have the death penalty for the crime of atheism,is this the Islam you are so keen to defend?

You should ask muslims if there are contradictions in the Quran, only ex muslims will admit the Quran is full of contradictions, those who claim to be muslim like Gandalf are in denial about all the contradictions in that dusty old book from the dark ages.
Gandald even conceded Muhammad al Razi was not a muslims after seeing what he wrote about the contradictions in the Quran.

The Quran says Islam has been perfected in sura 5:3, ask a muslim if Islam is perfect.
Quote:

This day i have perfected for you your religion.
quran.com/5/3

What do Islamic websites say about this verse-
Quote:

The divine statement is "This day i have perfected your religion for you" Hence the work which was not a part of the religion in the prophets time which he neither did himself nor persuaded others to do,cannot be included in religion today.
www.inter-islam.org/Prohibitions/prohibitdex.htm- click on innovation and religion

The no compulsion in religion verse has been abrogated by the verse of the sword.
Quote:

And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush,but if they should repent,establish prayer and give zakah,let them go on their way
quran.com/9/5

That verse says convert or die which contradicts you no compulsion bullshit.

It was god's right hand man called Muhammad who calls for the death of apostates.
Quote:

The messenger of allah said:Whoever changes his religion,kill him (sahih).
Do you know what a sahih hadith is?
Many verses saying apostates are to be killed-
www.sunnah.com/search/change-religion

So are all those countries with Islam as the state religion doing Islam wrong by having the death penalty for leaving Islam and you are the only idiot who knows Islam?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #92 - May 9^th, 2013 at 1:02pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 11:48pm:

freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 9:52pm:

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-prn1/41779_106408792736329_4866_n.jpg

Is this your answer, FD? Roll Eyes

I think Gandalf's response will do for me. You are drawing an absurdly long bow to call my actions persecution.

Do you think what I do is exactly the same as marching through Sydney and Melbourne with placards calling for some guy's head to be chopped off because of a dodgy internet comedy video he posted? BTW, I don't even consider that to be persecution, but it is part of a wider campaign by Muslims to destroy freedom of speech.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #93 - May 9^th, 2013 at 1:21pm

Baronvonrort wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:39pm:

The no compulsion in religion verse has been abrogated by the verse of the sword

No its not. Read the entire chapter.

The chapter is all about God offering the polytheists - who had all along tried to stamp out the small muslim nation - immunity and a chance to establish a treaty with the muslims:

9/1 (Shakir)
Quote:

(This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

9/1 (Ghali)
Quote:

An acquittal from Allah and His Messenger to the ones of the associators (Those who associate others with Allah) (with) whom you have covenanted.

Muslims are commanded to defend themselves if the polytheists break the treaty and resume hostilities. However the need to show mercy and protection to those polytheists who desist attacks and seek protection from the muslims - is spelled out very clearly:

9/6:
Quote:

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9/7:
Quote:

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

The Dr Ghali translation of 9/5 uses the word "stripped away" in place of "passed" in the sentence "and when the sacred months have passed" - indicating that the treaty was not a set period of time after which hostilities must resume - rather it will only end if the polytheists break it ("stripped away").

The muslim's obligation to adhere to the peace is clear in both 9/6 and 9/7

Subsequent verses give the rationale for waging war on those who break the treaty and do not show goodwill:

9/8:
Quote:

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

9/10:
Quote:

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

I'm not sure how more clearly the message "show goodwill to those who show goodwill to you, but defend yourselves against aggression and oppression" - can be.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #94 - May 9^th, 2013 at 2:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 1:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 12:39pm:

The no compulsion in religion verse has been abrogated by the verse of the sword

No its not. Read the entire chapter.

The chapter is all about God offering the polytheists - who had all along tried to stamp out the small muslim nation - immunity and a chance to establish a treaty with the muslims:

9/1 (Shakir)
Quote:

(This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

9/1 (Ghali)
Quote:

An acquittal from Allah and His Messenger to the ones of the associators (Those who associate others with Allah) (with) whom you have covenanted.

Muslims are commanded to defend themselves if the polytheists break the treaty and resume hostilities. However the need to show mercy and protection to those polytheists who desist attacks and seek protection from the muslims - is spelled out very clearly:

9/6:
Quote:

And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.

9/7:
Quote:

How can there be for the polytheists a treaty in the sight of Allah and with His Messenger, except for those with whom you made a treaty at al-Masjid al-Haram? So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

The Dr Ghali translation of 9/5 uses the word "stripped away" in place of "passed" in the sentence "and when the sacred months have passed" - indicating that the treaty was not a set period of time after which hostilities must resume - rather it will only end if the polytheists break it ("stripped away").

The muslim's obligation to adhere to the peace is clear in both 9/6 and 9/7

Subsequent verses give the rationale for waging war on those who break the treaty and do not show goodwill:

9/8:
Quote:

How [can there be a treaty] while, if they gain dominance over you, they do not observe concerning you any pact of kinship or covenant of protection? They satisfy you with their mouths, but their hearts refuse [compliance], and most of them are defiantly disobedient.

9/10:
Quote:

They do not observe toward a believer any pact of kinship or covenant of protection. And it is they who are the transgressors.

I'm not sure how more clearly the message "show goodwill to those who show goodwill to you, but defend yourselves against aggression and oppression" - can be.

The verse of the sword has abrogated the no compulsion in religion bullshit.

Islamic source,scroll to the bottom-
Quote:

This verse is known as Ayat al Sayf (The verse of the sword)

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say there is no compulsion to become a muslim.

www.islamqa.com/en/ref/34770/nocompulsion

Do you think anyone believes your lies gandalf?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #95 - May 9^th, 2013 at 3:10pm

My jaw literally dropped when reading that nonsense from islamqa.

I was not previously familiar with this website, then I did a bit of research. It is run by a salafist (extremist, minority sect) based in Saudi Arabia, and advocates views that are, quite frankly, rejected by mainstream islam. Amongst these is the claim that female genital mutilation is prescribed by islam. Saudi Arabia itself has banned the website because it was issuing its own independent fatwas. The most ridiculous claim in that article is that this so called "verse of the sword" abbrogates the no compulsion verse.

Fact is, there is no such thing as "abbrogated verses" in the quran. There is nothing inconsistent in the quran - if you read it properly.

How anyone can interpret Surat At-Tawbah as anything to do with forcing people to adopt islam is beyond me. The message is very clear - as I pointed out in the last post - when muslims make a treaty with non-muslims, they have an obligation to honour it. But if the non-muslims break the treaty, then they are obligated to fight them in self defence. Yet as soon as the non-muslims cease hostilities, the muslims do to. Its all there in black and white in the verses I quoted.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #96 - May 9^th, 2013 at 3:56pm

Brian Ross

moses wrote: Quote:

So there we have it:

muslims and their apologists afraid to tackle the issue of violence in the conglomeration of islam / allah / muhammad / qur'an.

While they love to try and equate Christianity with islam, they find it impossible to find or quote, any teachings of Christ which encourage killing and terrorism.

Brian Ross wrote: Quote:

Moses, I am afraid to tackle nothing. Islam has problems, I'm only too willing to agree but that does not give you the right to persecute it's followers in the manner you continually do. You're no better than the Nazis in that respect.

Your version of Islam is not the Islam of the majority of Muslims, you've created a caricature, Moses

I have every right to criticise (and form an opinion of) islam and it's entrenched violence, bigotry and hatred, directed at non muslims.

This hatred, bigotry and violence is enshrined in islam, through the literal commands of allah, taught in the teachings of muhammad and recorded in the qur'an.

Of course the, year in year out, innumerable killings of innocent men, women and children by muslims around the globe, goes a long way to helping form said opinion as well.

Now the question still remains, when are muslims and their apologists going to tell the truth ( and tackle the issue of ) the level of violence contained and preached in / by islam, allah, muhammed and the qur'an, causes islamic atrocities?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #97 - May 9^th, 2013 at 5:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

My jaw literally dropped when reading that nonsense from islamqa.

I was not previously familiar with this website, then I did a bit of research. It is run by a salafist (extremist, minority sect) based in Saudi Arabia, and advocates views that are, quite frankly, rejected by mainstream islam. Amongst these is the claim that female genital mutilation is prescribed by islam. Saudi Arabia itself has banned the website because it was issuing its own independent fatwas. The most ridiculous claim in that article is that this so called "verse of the sword" abbrogates the no compulsion verse.

There is nothing inconsistent in the quran

How anyone can interpret Surat At-Tawbah as anything to do with forcing people to adopt islam is beyond me. The message is very clear - as I pointed out in the last post -

Sheikh Munajid studied Islamic law under the scholar Abd al-Azziz ibn Baaz who was the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia, so do you think the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia knows Islam?
He was the first person to launch a website in Saudi Arabia representing Islam back in 1997.
He has several radio and television programs on channels in Saudi Arabia and throughout the Persian gulf, he has over 4000 hours worth of media broadcasts on the internet.
Al Munajid is the imam and lecturer at the Umar ibn Abd al-Azziz mosque.
We could always use sheik Hilaly who was the Grand Mufti of Australia if you prefer that.
www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Al-Munajjid
His website is not banned in Saudi Arabia, you can ask Debunker or Salim Munquith who are Saudis who post at the Council of ex muslims,
www.councilofexmuslims.com

Muslims face Mecca in Saudi Arabia when they pray, one of the 5 pillars of Islam is Hajj and dont tell me you go to Mecca in Saudi Arabia for that.
Yes the munafiqs (hypocrites) try and distance themselves from the Saudis while they face Mecca when praying and forgetting about Hajj.

As for the Salafi are you suggesting they are doing Islam the wrong way?
Quote:

According to the 2010 German domestic intelligence annual report,Salafism is the fastest growing Islamic movement in the world.

The first generations of muslims are collectively referred to as the pious predecessors as-salaf as-saleh.

Salafis view the salaf as an eternal model for all succeeding muslim generations in their beliefs,exegesis,method of worship,mannerisms,morality and piety.
The Islam they practised is seen as pure,unadulterated and therefore the ultimate authority for the interpretation of the sunnah.

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafi_movement

Muhammad al Razi said the Quran was full of contradictions, he was a great scientist and you are a nobody.

9:5 is pretty clear, sounds like convert or die-
www.quran.com/9/5

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Adamant

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #98 - May 9^th, 2013 at 6:37pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

The message is very clear - as I pointed out in the last post - when muslims make a treaty with non-muslims, they have an obligation to honour it.

In 1066 in islamic Spain muslims killed between 3500 and 7000 Jews! It was the muslim that broke the treaty. Going back further your original Mo man killer gave his word to a rival tribe, he promised safe passage to 20 men if they had a meeting. All were killed by his henchmen, when told of this your mo man laughed.

Grow up gandalf and get a life! Or stop telling LIES

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In real life Gandalf is known as Mr 10%

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freediver

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #99 - May 9^th, 2013 at 7:06pm

Quote:

So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them.

This sounds like what Brian is accusing me of. Except it involves chopping off heads rather than criticism. I am sure he would describe it as being exactly the same.

Quote:

I was not previously familiar with this website, then I did a bit of research. It is run by a salafist (extremist, minority sect) based in Saudi Arabia, and advocates views that are, quite frankly, rejected by mainstream islam. Amongst these is the claim that female genital mutilation is prescribed by islam.

I think according to Abu (a Sunni) it is permitted or recommended, though he calls it female circumcision to distinguish it from FGM, which is cutting a bit more off and attracts the death penalty. You have to get it just right, apparently.

Quote:

Saudi Arabia itself has banned the website because it was issuing its own independent fatwas.

Who has religious authority in Islam to issue 'non-independent' fatwas? Do you support this ban? Is the ban an expression of Islamic standards?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Soren

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #100 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:03pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 11:41pm:

Soren wrote on May 7^th, 2013 at 9:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 6^th, 2013 at 9:38pm:

The interpretation of Islam, Lionel. There is a difference. There is no one, single, unified religion called "Islam" and I'm sure you're well aware of that. It is not centrally directed or controlled. It is riven with Schism and sectarian differences, great and small.

You are exaggerating a commonplace observation. Islam - anything - is its interpretation. No law, custom, religion, etc exist without being interpreted. They are all their interpretations. Yawn. No great insight there.

Funny, it appears to have passed people such as Freediver and dare I suggest you, by?

The critics here of Islam seem to have erected a caricature of the religion, a strawman which they enjoy beating around the place, rather than addressing the reality. I wonder why? Could it be because it's easier to do that? Roll Eyes

You know why?

Because it's the head-hacking, crazy bearded jihadi boys' interpretation of Islam that dominates. Their interpretation cowers all the other -all together now, 'vast majority of law abiding etc - Muslims into silence or cautious muttering and foot shuffling at best.

Islam itself has been hijacked by the grizzly crazies -and the 'vast majority' crowd has let it be kidnapped by them!!!

That's the thing they will not face. They are either cowards (if they disagree with the 'tiny minority', always, always a 'tiny minority' of jihadis) or they are in agreement with them and are just allowing the crazies to do all the running for them.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West. Reply #101 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:09pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 3:10pm: quite frankly, rejected by mainstream islam. Who knew??? (and there's your problem, pal. quite frankly.)
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West. Reply #102 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:14pm Brian Ross wrote on May 8^th, 2013 at 11:51pm: I was debating online before there was an internet. Musta been something only you could log on to.... Like Martini in One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest - he passed the ball to people only he could see. And having the ball was optional.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West. Reply #103 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:39pm Adamant wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 6:37pm: Grow up gandalf and get a life! Or stop telling LIES What part of "as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them." is unclear?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: Islamonausea Rising in the West.
Reply #104 - May 9^th, 2013 at 10:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2013 at 3:10pm:

The message is very clear - as I pointed out in the last post - when muslims make a treaty with non-muslims, they have an obligation to honour it.

No they don't.

Words, and oaths, and treaties, mean absolutely nothing to the moslem.

They are a 'convenience' to be exploited - nothing more.

Love is not love Which alters when it alteration
Yadda wrote on Jan 20^th, 2011 at 9:13am:

.........
e.g.
....when a good moslem makes a verbal agreement [an oath] with an 'unbeliever', that agreement isn't worth the paper it is written on.

i.e.
A moslem MAY honour his agreement with an 'unbeliever' [if honouring his agreement is in the interests of the moslem].
But a good moslem is not obligated to honour any agreement he makes with an 'unbeliever'.
And THAT, is the 'get out' for all good moslems, in all dealings and agreements with 'unbelievers'.

And why ???

Because moslems, dealings and agreements and truces with 'unbelievers', are following the example of ISLAM's perfect man, Mohammed.

'HUDNA' IS THE ARABIC WORD FOR TRUCE...
Google;
arafat hudna explained

Google;
Treaty of Hudaybiya

Google;
when it is in their interests to do so muslims will seek a truce hudna with a stronger enemy

Google;
muslims are free to break a truce with an enemy as soon as they feel strong enough to resume hostilities

MOSLEM 'LOGIC' CONCERNING THE NEVER-ENDING WARS AND CONFLICTS WITH UNBELIEVERS...
Google;
resisting islam causes war, so infidels are responsible for war with muslims

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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