Australian Politics Forum - Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush

Dnarever

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #30 - Apr 12^th, 2013 at 7:40pm

Swagman wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

I'm not a conservative and that was a pretty lame insult to take to heart as insults go DNA.

Anyway I think you resident Lefties have by far and away the lead in the insulting stakes....

It was just an observation, I actually like it when I am insulted - its game over.

I'm not a conservative

Difficult to tell by your posts, they do seem to quack.

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Dnarever

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #31 - Apr 12^th, 2013 at 7:52pm

cods wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 8:39am:

Dnarever wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

Swagman wrote on Apr 10^th, 2013 at 2:50pm:

I've heard all that bleating before it's a broken record.

You same idiots would have been bleating the same crap when the Japs were breathing down our necks.

Go and have a latte and count your dole cheque stubs you'll feel much better....

Iraq never had the capacity or intention of comming to Australia, they were no threat to us, It was John Howard who made us a target and triggered events like we seen in Indonesia.

I would be willing to bet that I pay at least twice the amount of tax that you do, maybe you should audit your government benifits.

so if Nth Korea looks like turning its missiles towards Japan for instance.... we look the other way is that right?

as long as we send money[aid] and accept boat people we are doing the right thing..

I would expect that the UN would take action against the aggressor ask for support and we would be involved but see nothing in common with this and a case where we were the aggressor and we were wrong.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #32 - Apr 12^th, 2013 at 11:00pm Dnarever wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 7:40pm: Difficult to tell by your posts, they do seem to quack Quack? WTF? I'm just anti-socialist. I hate bully boy collectivism tactics.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #33 - Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm

Swagman wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 3:47pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

Swagman wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 10:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 12^th, 2013 at 4:43am:

Something else about Australia's relationship to the US...

How does being a “100 per cent ally, not a 70 or 80 per cent one" necessarily translate into providing military support for every war in which the US is involved?

The ANZUS treaty for one.

And would you only help your mate out in a blue 7 or 8 times in 10? You'd let him get maybe punched out 20 to 30% of the time why? Huh

The ANZUS Treaty requires only that Australia/ US consults each other. It binds neither to automatic military support.

The "mate in a blue" 'argument' is the strawman often used by post-war Australian Heads of Government to justify unnecessary military commitment. There has not yet been a necessary Australian military commitment made in the spirit of ANZUS (which regards, from our side, the defence of Australian territory).

So what's your point? They consulted each other and Australia provided military support in accord with the treaty?

WTF is wrong with that?

The US didn't order us to participate?

Yes it is highly unlikely that the US pressured Australia to participate. Vassal states, of course, are responsive to their overlords suggestions... Pressure is not necessary.

The Iraq war was clearly not in the interests of most nations and the UN... Why was Australia's security interests served by participation? It could also be argued participation posed a greater threat to national security.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #34 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 8:22am

Four Corners - The Iraq War...

http://www.abc.net.au/iview/?series=2303988#/view/32690

George W Bush claims his biggest regret of his Presidency was the intelligence failure that led to the Iraq war...

Not so big a regret, however, that he would refrain from awarding the Medal of Freedom to Howard and Blair.

This should be a lesson to us all that our vassal status leads us to commit atrocities which, under any other circumstance, we would not.

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Swagman

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #35 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

The Iraq war was clearly not in the interests of most nations and the UN

Yes the political 'interests' of Russia & China were progressed in taking an anti-USA & anti-UK and thereby anti-war stance. It had effall to do with peace and these commie & quasi-commie nations were certainly not interested in upholding UNSC resolutions.

The UN also demonstrated its complete impotence. It failed almost absolutely to uphold it's own resolutions.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

Why was Australia's security interests served by participation?

When in an alliance you support your allies. ANZUS is absolutely paramount to Australia's security interests. Certainly more important than a bit of criticism from anti-USA socialists within the UN and elsewhere.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

It could also be argued participation posed a greater threat to national security

Yes you could, but for someone worried about being a 'Vassal' isn't that far worse?

You would let stateless psychopathic criminals rule your foreign policy ahead of established alliances? Sad

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #36 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:38am

Swagman wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

The Iraq war was clearly not in the interests of most nations and the UN

Yes the political 'interests' of Russia & China were progressed in taking an anti-USA & anti-UK and thereby anti-war stance. It had effall to do with peace and these commie & quasi-commie nations were certainly not interested in upholding UNSC resolutions.

The UN also demonstrated its complete impotence. It failed almost absolutely to uphold it's own resolutions.

Nearly every nation in the UN did not believe the 'intelligence' regarding Iraq... Neither did the Bush Administration.

As it turns out, the charge of gross incompetence (to put it kindly - near criminal obfuscation would be a better term) could be leveled at the British, US and Australian governments (see the Four Corners link).

Swagman wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

Why was Australia's security interests served by participation?

When in an alliance you support your allies. ANZUS is absolutely paramount to Australia's security interests. Certainly more important than a bit of criticism from anti-USA socialists within the UN and elsewhere.

ANZUS exists to protect Australian territory and threats to the state. It does not require that Australia necessarily participate in any war that does not directly threaten Australian interests or territory.

Swagman wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:00am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 13^th, 2013 at 12:40pm:

It could also be argued participation posed a greater threat to national security

Yes you could, but for someone worried about being a 'Vassal' isn't that far worse?

You would let stateless psychopathic criminals rule your foreign policy ahead of established alliances? Sad

I believe that Australian Heads of Government since WW2 have routinely embroiled the nation in wars that are not in the national interest. Their objective has always been to maintain our vassal status with regard to the US.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #37 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:45am

In 2003, Iraq had still not complied with the Resolutions demanded of it by the Security Council of free, unhindered access to all of its facilities to Weapons Inspectors.

This is 13 years after being told they needed to do so - if you remember they had illegally invaded a sovereign nation.

13 years.

How much longer do you think they needed to understand the message?

Another 13?

"Iraq, unfortunately does still not comply fully or understand the necessity of allowing access to UNSCOM demanded of it by this Council."

Hans Blix,
Chief UNSCOM Inspector, Jan 2003

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #38 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:50am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:45am:

In 2003, Iraq had still not complied with the Resolutions demanded of it by the Security Council of free, unhindered access to all of its facilities to Weapons Inspectors.

This is 13 years after being told they needed to do so - if you remember they had illegally invaded a sovereign nation.

13 years.

How much longer do you think they needed to understand the message?

Another 13?

"Iraq, unfortunately does still not comply fully or understand the necessity of allowing access to UNSCOM demanded of it by this Council."

Hans Blix,
Chief UNSCOM Inspector, Jan 2003

However it's clear now that, prior to March 2003, both the British and US governments were aware Iraq did not have WMDs.

Bush, himself, regrets the war. A weak President driven by political ideologues than by intellect.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #39 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:51am You do appreciate that Iraq was not complying with UN Resolutions demanded of it by the Security Council yes?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #40 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:53am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:51am:

You do appreciate that Iraq was not complying with UN Resolutions demanded of it by the Security Council yes?

You do realise that the 'intelligence' used to justify the invasion was exaggerated by the US and UK governments... Something the rest of the world appeared to be aware of... Particularly the Germans as it turns out.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #41 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:55am I'm asking you the question though. If Iraq had complied with the demands of it, by allowing weapons inspectors access at all times, at any time, then Blix would not have given the report they are not complying. Why did Iraq not comply with the UN Security Council?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #42 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:59am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 9:55am:

I'm asking you the question though.

If Iraq had complied with the demands of it, by allowing weapons inspectors access at all times, at any time, then Blix would not have given the report they are not complying.

Why did Iraq not comply with the UN Security Council?

Non-compliance was not grounds, per se, for invasion.

The 'intelligence' was known by the US and UK governments to be false prior to March 2003. There was no need for an invasion of Iraq... Even the US and UK government members past and present can admit that (albeit in hindsight).

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush Reply #43 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 10:00am Yeah but you are still skirting around the question. Why - after 13 years - was Iraq still not complying with the UN Security Council?? Even China and Russia's patience was being tried on this one. Why didn't they?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Iraq - The Ballad of Howard, Blair and Bush
Reply #44 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 10:06am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 16^th, 2013 at 10:00am:

Yeah but you are still skirting around the question.

Why - after 13 years - was Iraq still not complying with the UN Security Council??

Even China and Russia's patience was being tried on this one.

Why didn't they?

I don't know... What we all know now, however, is that Iraq did not have WMDs and the US and UK governments were aware of it before March 2003. An invasion to rid Iraq of these weapons was redundant.

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