Australian Politics Forum - How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia

Yadda

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #15 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:08am

Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

If such a process were in place in Australia, it would be money well spent, imo;

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 12:00am:

Where's the pay off for your investment?

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 12:45am:

people today are a lot more informed and better educated than a hundred years ago Yadda. I don't see a rise in the standard of politician. Still - you're the smart guy with the special formatting skills, good luck with this and cheerio. Wink

What, is it grey ???

Is it;
1/ That you simply refuse to concede that the reasoning in my proposition(s) is sound [or that this proposition can have any merit] because it is that person 'Yadda' who is presenting this 'idea' ???

Or, is it;
2/ That you truly cannot see the merit in my argument or, that you truly cannot see the merit in the logic of my argument ???

Quote:

i.e.
Somehow!!!, if a democracy can improve the intellect of the group of people who are entitled to vote for lawmakers, then [quickly] over time, the quality of the lawmakers elected must improve [to reflect the intellect of the people who elected them].

It is difficult.

Anyone got a light bulb they want to change ??? Tongue

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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progressiveslol

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #16 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:14am

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:08am:

Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 9:46pm:

If such a process were in place in Australia, it would be money well spent, imo;

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 12:00am:

Where's the pay off for your investment?

Grey wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 12:45am:

people today are a lot more informed and better educated than a hundred years ago Yadda. I don't see a rise in the standard of politician. Still - you're the smart guy with the special formatting skills, good luck with this and cheerio. Wink

What, is it grey ???

Is it;
1/ That you simply refuse to concede that the reasoning in my proposition(s) is sound [or that this proposition can have any merit] because it is that person 'Yadda' who is presenting this 'idea' ???

Or, is it;
2/ That you truly cannot see the merit in my argument or, that you truly cannot see the merit in the logic of my argument ???

Quote:

i.e.
Somehow!!!, if a democracy can improve the intellect of the group of people who are entitled to vote for lawmakers, then [quickly] over time, the quality of the lawmakers elected must improve [to reflect the intellect of the people who elected them].

It is difficult.

Anyone got a light bulb they want to change ??? Tongue

I already blew apart your reasoning. There is nowhere else to go with this. You cant go past the consequence, because you might as well adjust your idea to "can we just put a dictator in now and be done with this waffle"

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Yadda

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #17 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:37am

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:14am:

I already blew apart your reasoning. There is nowhere else to go with this. You cant go past the consequence, because you might as well adjust your idea to "can we just put a dictator in now and be done with this waffle"

progressiveslol,

I do not agree with your assumption, that the consequence which you propose, would occur.

And that is all that it is, an assumption.

Q.
Why would a politician who is elected [and who subsequently takes a personal and a public oath] to serve the country and its people, subvert that good intent, ......if the intellect of the group of people who are entitled to vote for lawmakers is improved [by removing from the 'electorate' [voluntarily, through a process of self-selection] those persons who would 'sell' their entitlement to vote for $200] ???

Where is your evidence, that politicians would be corrupted by such an circumstance being in place [which removed from the 'electorate' [voluntarily, through a process of self-selection] those persons who would 'sell' their entitlement to vote for as sum of money, say $200] ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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progressiveslol

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #18 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:42am

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:37am:

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:14am:

I already blew apart your reasoning. There is nowhere else to go with this. You cant go past the consequence, because you might as well adjust your idea to "can we just put a dictator in now and be done with this waffle"

progressiveslol,

I do not agree with your assumption, that the consequence which you propose, would occur.

And that is all that it is, an assumption.

Q.
Why would a politician who is elected [and who subsequently takes a personal and a public oath] to serve the country and its people, subvert that good intent, ......if the intellect of the group of people who are entitled to vote for lawmakers is improved [by removing from the 'electorate' [voluntarily, through a process of self-selection] those persons who would 'sell' their entitlement to vote for $200] ???

Where is your evidence, that politicians would be corrupted by such an circumstance being in place [which removed from the 'electorate' [voluntarily, through a process of self-selection] those persons who would 'sell' their entitlement to vote for as sum of money, say $200] ???

It is not an assumption, it is a door ready to be opened. You cant argue that the door doesnt exist with your theory, you can only argue that it wouldnt be opened. Which by the way would be pointless. Back to square 1.

The whole point of having good governance, is to have in place laws that prevent government going too far. You start putting in doors for them to open, eventually they will open them.

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Yadda

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #19 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:11am

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Your idea will have the consequence of:

Get me in government and ill make the people so poor, they will have to take the money.

That, is your assertion.

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:42am:

It is not an assumption, it is a door ready to be opened. You cant argue that the door doesnt exist with your theory, you can only argue that it wouldnt be opened. Which by the way would be pointless. Back to square 1.

The whole point of having good governance, is to have in place laws that prevent government going too far. You start putting in doors for them to open, eventually they will open them.

progressiveslol,

I do not accept your assertion.

No person in Australia is so poor, that they need to sell their entitlement to vote, for $200.

No person in Australia is so poor, that they would feel compelled, to sell their entitlement to vote, for $200.

And, my assertion is that;
In a democracy, any government administration that [over time] endeavoured to make it citizens [electors!] so impoverished, would soon be brought to book [by those electors], imo.

That, is my argument.

Dictionary;

endeavour = = try hard to do or achieve something.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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progressiveslol

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #20 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:25am

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:11am:

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 11:39pm:

Your idea will have the consequence of:

Get me in government and ill make the people so poor, they will have to take the money.

That, is your assertion.

progressiveslol wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 10:42am:

It is not an assumption, it is a door ready to be opened. You cant argue that the door doesnt exist with your theory, you can only argue that it wouldnt be opened. Which by the way would be pointless. Back to square 1.

The whole point of having good governance, is to have in place laws that prevent government going too far. You start putting in doors for them to open, eventually they will open them.

progressiveslol,

I do not accept your assertion.

No person in Australia is so poor, that they need to sell their entitlement to vote, for $200.

No person in Australia is so poor, that they would feel compelled, to sell their entitlement to vote, for $200.

And, my assertion is that;
In a democracy, any government administration that [over time] endeavoured to make it citizens [electors!] so impoverished, would soon be brought to book [by those electors], imo.

That, is my argument.

Dictionary;

endeavour = = try hard to do or achieve something.

It isnt about if "no person is so poor", it is about having a door available to "make people so poor that they will have to take the money"

It is then your assumption that the door would never be used or that if used, it wouldnt work because......

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Yadda

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #21 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:42am

Quote:

It isnt about if "no person is so poor", it is about having a door available to "make people so poor that they will have to take the money"

It is then your assumption that the door would never be used or that if used, it wouldnt work because......

progressiveslol,

Yes, tell us.

How is a government going to impoverish us [its own citizens] ?

That is, by what means could a government impoverish us to such an extent, that we would need [that is, feel compelled] to sell to it [the government], our entitlement to vote ???

It is an absurd proposition, imo.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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progressiveslol

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #22 - Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:51am

Yadda wrote on Apr 6^th, 2013 at 11:42am:

Quote:

It isnt about if "no person is so poor", it is about having a door available to "make people so poor that they will have to take the money"

It is then your assumption that the door would never be used or that if used, it wouldnt work because......

progressiveslol,

Yes, tell us.

How is a government going to impoverish us [its own citizens] ?

That is, by what means could a government impoverish us to such an extent, that we would need [that is, feel compelled] to sell to it [the government], our entitlement to vote ???

It is an absurd proposition, imo.

Dam, it is so much easier to make us poor than to help make us wealthy.

The door would be created, whether being able to use the door, whether the door would be opened. It is up to you to tell us why it would never be used.

You need to get that. The door would be created by you. Your theory. Tell us why that door could never ever be used. We/I will tell you that you are wrong again. This is not a game I like to play, so dont think I am playing a game. This is about good governance and why as many people as possible should see this before I do.

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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia Reply #23 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 9:05am Down the years, I have met any number of women who would sell themselves, or, more accurately, lend themselves, for less than $200.
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Dnarever

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #24 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 9:33am

The proposition would be much more attractive to people who needed the money than others, this would produce an I assume unintended political skew in favour of one political view.

This would remove people who would want to vote from the system as an economic choice but have little impact on those who you may consider unthinking idiots especially if they have money.

The end result would be that the unthinking idiots votes would carry more weight.

Hang on apparently I can have a woman for my vote, that may be worth considering??

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #25 - Aug 7^th, 2013 at 11:27pm

I'd choose $200 with the current lot contending for my vote...

However - we could seek some change - any change - and start with a PEP - Popularly Elected President... but we all know that will never happen if our pollies have their way, since it removes power from them to control their own Party leader - as Julia Gillard was the tool of the Labor right.

LATE NEWS:- Ah, yes - the old 'social control by induced poverty' theory, eh? A reasonable proposition based on the idea that rendering the populace poor will make them incapable of mounting any opposition to government hegemony (think it through, people), and thus render them vassals of the State - rather than the State being vassal to the People as Sovereign........

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Chimp_Logic Gold Member Offline πολιτικός Posts: 4826 Mawson Base Gender:	Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia Reply #26 - Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 2:00am Democracy? You cant reform what you never had and don't have today. Demos (citizen) kratia (state) Explain how the state is controlled by the citizenry?
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Postmodern Trendoid

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #27 - Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 6:51am

Chimp_Logic wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 2:00am:

Democracy?

You cant reform what you never had and don't have today.

Demos (citizen) kratia (state)

Explain how the state is controlled by the citizenry?

Democracy is an impediment for us progressives. Peace, harmony, and tolerance can only be achieved through brutal suppression of dissent and opposition.

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Only the boat people can save us from our own evil.

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Pantheon

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Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia
Reply #28 - Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 7:48am

Personally i would restore all the rights the states lost when the federal government sued them. The federal government was extended to focus only on defence and foreign policy, everything else from health, education and taxation was lift to the states themselves.

Also i would greatly limit the welfare system, so it cant surpass a curtain percentage of GDP. The problem with the current system is that someone is alway missing out so the system continuously to expands faster than our GDP growth, and eventually it could become quickly of a problem. (another problem is instead of tackling what causes a problem we just throw money at it which potentially waste billions of dollars, for example there are so many problem in our education system and yet instead of reforming our education system we have decided to throw money at the problem.)

[quote author=Yadda link=1365046055/0#0 date=1365046055]Too many selfish, unthinking idiots, are allowed to vote. [/size]

Agreed, "Some people work for a living, other vote for a living."

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« Last Edit: Oct 3^rd, 2013 at 8:01am by Pantheon »

1378100_10153329820345515_1054191555_n.jpg (52 KB | 41 )

[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia Reply #29 - Oct 6^th, 2013 at 1:26am Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2013 at 1:27pm: How we CAN, reform democracy in Australia Q. What is wrong with democracy in Australia ? A. Too many selfish, unthinking idiots, are allowed to vote. imo It's time to elect a new people.
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