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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #30 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:31am Let me ask a question. Julia Gillard v Tony Abbott - how well is your system performing as far as choosing the right person to lead the country?
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Re: Anarchism
Reply #31 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 8:52am

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:31am:

Let me ask a question. Julia Gillard v Tony Abbott - how well is your system performing as far as choosing the right person to lead the country?

Who's system? Democracy is a dam joke. Not only that, it seems your "anarchism" is just a less effective version of it. 80% consensus as opposed to 51% - apart from that, identical.

Scenario: A warlord is advancing on the anarchists position, with conquest, rape and pillage on their agenda. The anarchists sit around trying to work out a hierarchy and consensus on the question "should we fight or should we flee?" They're still arguing when the warlords forces arrive and slaughter the men, rape the women and enslave the children. The end.

And that is why there are no anarchist regimes/armies.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #32 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 10:10am

Grey wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:31am:

Let me ask a question. Julia Gillard v Tony Abbott - how well is your system performing as far as choosing the right person to lead the country?

It's not really "my" system, but it works well enough for the majority.
If there was a natural evolution from kings to anarchism then we would nearly be there already.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #33 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 11:04am

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 8:52am:

A warlord is advancing on the anarchists position, with conquest, rape and pillage on their agenda. The anarchists sit around trying to work out a hierarchy and consensus on the question "should we fight or should we flee Who has the best idea and tactics to achieve our mission?"

It was that exact scenario that got Alexander's stranded eastern army back to Greece after the death of Alexander and the subsequent collapse of his empire.

The Greeks resorted to democracy (i.e. sat down and determined who had the best plan to carry a disheveled army from India back to Greece). Rank was ignored. It worked.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #34 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 11:40am What works for a band of defeated soldiers trying to get home doesn't necessarily work for everyone.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #35 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:36pm ... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 11:40am: What works for a band of defeated soldiers trying to get home doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Maybe not, but that was the analogy you chose.
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Re: Anarchism
Reply #36 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:42pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:36pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 11:40am:

What works for a band of defeated soldiers trying to get home doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Maybe not, but that was the analogy you chose.

No it wasn't. I was talking of a group facing an impending attack, not an already defeated army just trying to get home.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #37 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:43pm

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:36pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 11:40am:

What works for a band of defeated soldiers trying to get home doesn't necessarily work for everyone.

Maybe not, but that was the analogy you chose.

No it wasn't. I was talking of a group facing an impending attack, not an already defeated army just trying to get home.

The difference being?

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #38 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:45pm The point being it's best to avoid being defeated in the first place.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #39 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:49pm ... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:45pm: The point being it's best to avoid being defeated in the first place. It might be, but what's the difference in analogy between the defeated using democracy to achieve an outcome as opposed to the besieged using the same?
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Re: Anarchism
Reply #40 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:49pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:45pm:

The point being it's best to avoid being defeated in the first place.

It might be, but what's the difference in analogy between the defeated using democracy to achieve an outcome as opposed to the besieged using the same?

Because once the rabble reached a consensus, they would still divide into leaders and the led on the journey. Then once they got back, they'd immediately be absorbed back into the established hierarchy. What's anarchistic about that?

It's all very wll for immediate, clearly defined tasks for small groups, but as population and duration increase, the less effective they become.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #41 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:01pm

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:49pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:45pm:

The point being it's best to avoid being defeated in the first place.

It might be, but what's the difference in analogy between the defeated using democracy to achieve an outcome as opposed to the besieged using the same?

Because once the rabble reached a consensus, they would still divide into leaders and the led on the journey. Then once they got back, they'd immediately be absorbed back into the established hierarchy. What's anarchistic about that?

It's all very wll for immediate, clearly defined tasks for small groups, but as population and duration increase, the less effective they become.

With regard to your reply #31...
Quote:

Democracy is a dam joke. Not only that, it seems your "anarchism" is just a less effective version of it. 80% consensus as opposed to 51% - apart from that, identical.

How is democracy (at 51%) or anarchism (at 80%) a joke if it achieves an otherwise unlikely outcome?

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #42 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:09pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:01pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:49pm:

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 12:45pm:

The point being it's best to avoid being defeated in the first place.

It might be, but what's the difference in analogy between the defeated using democracy to achieve an outcome as opposed to the besieged using the same?

Because once the rabble reached a consensus, they would still divide into leaders and the led on the journey. Then once they got back, they'd immediately be absorbed back into the established hierarchy. What's anarchistic about that?

It's all very wll for immediate, clearly defined tasks for small groups, but as population and duration increase, the less effective they become.

With regard to your reply #31...
Quote:

Democracy is a dam joke. Not only that, it seems your "anarchism" is just a less effective version of it. 80% consensus as opposed to 51% - apart from that, identical.

How is democracy (at 51%) or anarchism (at 80%) a joke if it achieves an otherwise unlikely outcome?

becasue I'd rather know who the tyrant is, as in a dictatorship, as opposed to having them practice their tyranny by proxy, as they do in democracy. Anarchism just hides under it's blanket and hysterically repeats "there are no tyrants, there are no tyrants." Until it is predictably overrun, by tyrants.

There'll always be tyranny, oppression and all that it's just a matter of taste as to what flavour of tyranny and oppression you prefer. The nature of man will always win out against the systems designed to harness it. Democracy, Monarchy, Communism, Anarchy - All systems lead to sh!t in the end.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #43 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:13pm

... wrote on Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:09pm:

becasue I'd rather know who the tyrant is, as in a dictatorship, as opposed to having them practice their tyranny by proxy, as they do in democracy.

I'm guessing neither you nor your immediate family have ever lived under a dictatorship.

Knowing the dictator is Stalin doesn't make your chances of surviving his displeasure any better.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #44 - Apr 1^st, 2013 at 1:20pm Not every dictator is a communist. Although despot is a better word.
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