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Soren

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #150 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:45pm

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Soren wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 5:12pm:

But Anarchists are always willing to respect, to acknowledge an authority.

Bollocks.

Anarchism is about not accepting authority of any kind. Anarchism means headlessness - no authority.

If Anarchists relied on you to define themselves they'd be up shyte creek and no mistake Grin

Er... they are up shyte creek and no mistake.

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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #151 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:07pm

Soren wrote on Apr 11^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Cleaving to a 19th century idea (anarchism) in the 21st century is really a conservative, not to say reactionary, state of mind.

Murder is a crime. We should all pull together as a team. A city needs a sewerage system. Don't foul the communal drinking water by shyting in it.We need efficient ways to communicate quickly over long distances. What era would you subscribe these ideas to?

Ideas don't have a use by date. They form sporadically and are revised constantly to fit the needs of the times.

Anarchism is neither inherently left or right. It's just a structural idea to put the resources and needs of the local community ahead of the wants and desires of rulers. Damned if I can understand why you feel so threatened. Grin

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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #152 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:11pm

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Soren wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 5:12pm:

But Anarchists are always willing to respect, to acknowledge an authority.

Bollocks.

Anarchism is about not accepting authority of any kind. Anarchism means headlessness - no authority.

If Anarchists relied on you to define themselves they'd be up shyte creek and no mistake Grin

Er... they are up shyte creek and no mistake.

Actually the system of government we have is up shyte creek. All anarchists, (as the only people around with viable alternative ideas), have to do is wait in the wings and give 'em enough rope.

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"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

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Yadda

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #153 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 5:24pm

Grey wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Soren wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 5:12pm:

But Anarchists are always willing to respect, to acknowledge an authority.

Bollocks.

Anarchism is about not accepting authority of any kind. Anarchism means headlessness - no authority.

If Anarchists relied on you to define themselves they'd be up shyte creek and no mistake Grin

Er... they are up shyte creek and no mistake.

Actually the system of government we have is up shyte creek.

All anarchists, (as the only people around with viable alternative ideas), have to do is wait in the wings and give 'em enough rope.

grey,

Really ?

point #1,
Coz, in this thread somewhere, didn't you suggest that anarchism, does NOT have anything to do with [the violence 'associated' with] acts of anarchy ?

point #2,
If those [like yourself?] who cheer for anarchism today, are 'hamstrung' and blocked today, by the authority of normal government, how could those same people [i.e. those who cheer for anarchism today] take 'control' of a populous in a state of anarchy ?

Your logic seems contradictory to me ???

And your dreams and 'ambitions' [for 'anarchism'], seem very hopeful ???

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #154 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:26pm

Quote:

in this thread somewhere, didn't you suggest that anarchism, does NOT have anything to do with [the violence 'associated' with] acts of anarchy ?

There have been acts of violence associated with Anarchists Yadda, such as assasinations (Mckinley). I'd certainly divorce myself and the Anarchism I believe in from such useless savagery.

Anarchist protest against the G economic forums, fights with police and bank windows broken; I don't have much problem with that. It's a display of anger that I think fair enough in the circumstances. similarly I have no problem with violence aimed at neo-nazis.

Quote:

point #2,
If those [like yourself?] who cheer for anarchism today, are 'hamstrung' and blocked today, by the authority of normal government, how could those same people [i.e. those who cheer for anarchism today] take 'control' of a populous in a state of anarchy ?

I don't think Anarchism is blocked in the least by government. It's blocked by apathy and fear of change.

But change is coming whether people want it or not, because the system IS broken. Anarchism offers a soft landing.

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Yadda

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #155 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:51pm

Grey wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:26pm:

Quote:

point #2,
If those [like yourself?] who cheer for anarchism today, are 'hamstrung' and blocked today, by the authority of normal government, how could those same people [i.e. those who cheer for anarchism today] take 'control' of a populous in a state of anarchy ?

I don't think Anarchism is blocked in the least by government. It's blocked by apathy and fear of change.

But change is coming whether people want it or not, because the system IS broken. Anarchism offers a soft landing.

And i say;

"Tell him, He's dreaming!"

grey,

In a populous that embraces apathy [n.b. in a populous that chooses to embrace apathy!], anarchism offers nothing, to nobody.

People human beings want 'bread and circuses'.

Period.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #156 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:15pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:51pm:

Grey wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 8:26pm:

Quote:

point #2,
If those [like yourself?] who cheer for anarchism today, are 'hamstrung' and blocked today, by the authority of normal government, how could those same people [i.e. those who cheer for anarchism today] take 'control' of a populous in a state of anarchy ?

I don't think Anarchism is blocked in the least by government. It's blocked by apathy and fear of change.

But change is coming whether people want it or not, because the system IS broken. Anarchism offers a soft landing.

And i say;

"Tell him, He's dreaming!"

grey,

In a populous that embraces apathy [n.b. in a populous that chooses to embrace apathy!], anarchism offers nothing, to nobody.

People human beings want 'bread and circuses'.

Period.

grey said....
Quote:

But change is coming whether people want it or not, because the system IS broken. Anarchism offers a soft landing.

Sorry grey.

If/when the expected social 'cataclysm' eventuates, the people [the populous] won't be seeking or choosing, to embrace the 'virtue' of anarchism.

Instead, the populous will follow the first 'tyrant' who seems capable of reinstating the old order, the old 'certainty' [and NOT anarchism!] of providing what the people want.

i.e.
The provision, to the people, of a reliable supply of 'bread and circuses'.

And the 'tyrant' [that they choose to follow], will only need to make his promises sound plausible, to garner the support of the majority!

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« Last Edit: Apr 15^th, 2013 at 9:26pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Soren

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #157 - Apr 15^th, 2013 at 10:29pm

Grey wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 3:11pm:

Soren wrote on Apr 15^th, 2013 at 2:45pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 30^th, 2013 at 11:22am:

Soren wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 29^th, 2013 at 5:12pm:

But Anarchists are always willing to respect, to acknowledge an authority.

Bollocks.

Anarchism is about not accepting authority of any kind. Anarchism means headlessness - no authority.

If Anarchists relied on you to define themselves they'd be up shyte creek and no mistake Grin

Er... they are up shyte creek and no mistake.

All anarchists, (as the only people around with viable alternative ideas), have to do is wait in the wings and give 'em enough rope.

Yes, as history has shown time and again. Every time anarchists succeeded in the last 150 years, we can see the beginning of a successful and harmonious society. Open any history book and the evidence is overwhelming.

Cheesy

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #158 - Apr 16^th, 2013 at 12:42am What does history show us? That change comes slowly and often takes two forwards for one back. But change does happen and every dog gets its day. Or, as in the case of Anarchy, cat.
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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #159 - Apr 17^th, 2013 at 1:35am

Soren, I support ideas, but not ideology. I support the right of anybody to put up their ideas for discussion, but I don't support their gang.

That said I don't support the idea of exterminating a class of people. I don't support racism, sexisn, or coercion. But if they want to build autobahns and get the trains running on time, let's look at the proposal by all means.

Quote:

What is the ideology (ie the gang thought) that allows you to look at certain ideas but not others? What is the unquestioned, non-negotiable ideology of anarchism that directs your choices?
Greatest happiness? (aka utility, the shopkeeper's mentality)
Liberty, fraternity, equality? (a fundamentally Christian ideology in revolt against feudal power)
Marxism? (Christian materialism)
What?

You cannot call Anarchism a gang, ( I wont allow it

Look Gangs have rulers and hierarchies, they employ coercion to keep their group think tight. They're quite prepared to turn their ideology on its head because the main point of a gang is power. - So the Liberal party isn't Liberal and became Conservative and now it's not even that. The NeoCons told us that 'conservatives can be revolutionary too'. Well no, to be a conservative means exactly the opposite of being revolutionary.

What I want Soren, is for issues in common to be discussed by everybody. I think the kind of society that is most desirable is a harmonious society. I quite like equality, but I think you can have too much of it. But that's my view not an 'Anarchist view'. I think my POV at the table is important, but so is yours. It would worry me if you weren't heard.

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Soren

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #160 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 11:48am

A couple of questions:

What is the ideological basis of your not supporting racism, sexism or coercion? And do you support other, non-anarchist ideologies that also oppose them, on different grounds? (Although I suspect that your opposition to these, at heart, is the moral argument that is based on Christianity. Anarchism is a latter day Christian sect, no?)

Issues to be discussed by everybody - would you make this compulsory? And what do you do with the ones who oppose anarchism? Fight them. And they fight anarchism. Harmoniously, of course.
If it's not compulsory to discuss issues, then this is already achieved by liberal democracy where everyone is allowed to express their views but are not compelled to do so.

So what's left for anarchism, other than sloganeering and terrorism? It's moral basis is Christian and it's attitudes to liberty have long been implemented by liberalism.

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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #161 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 12:26pm

Soren wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 11:48am:

[quote]What is the ideological basis of your not supporting racism, sexism or coercion?

The ideaology of 'common sense'. You're not going to get people co-operating well by dividing them are you? Similarly. forcing people to do what they don't want to is, at the very least, a really crappy foundation for a society.

Quote:

And do you support other, non-anarchist ideologies that also oppose them, on different grounds?

Anarchism is not an ideology, you cannot approach the Anarchist table with a manifesto. Each issue is taken on its merits.

Quote:

(Although I suspect that your opposition to these, at heart, is the moral argument that is based on Christianity. Anarchism is a latter day Christian sect, no?)

No.

Quote:

Issues to be discussed by everybody - would you make this compulsory? And what do you do with the ones who oppose anarchism? Fight them. And they fight anarchism. Harmoniously, of course.

Issues that affect everybody are to be discussed by anybody with an interest. Nobody is forced to discuss anything in particular, the notion is silly.

Quote:

If it's not compulsory to discuss issues, then this is already achieved by liberal democracy where everyone is allowed to express their views but are not compelled to do so.

Liberal democracy is a mockery. A system where two main gangs in adverserial opposition divide the people at the point of balance, cannot be seriously compared to an Anarchist system.

Quote:

So what's left for anarchism, other than sloganeering and terrorism? It's moral basis is Christian and it's attitudes to liberty have long been implemented by liberalism.

Anarchism is a consciousness raising exercise. The cause is to get things right, it's not a race. Terrorism is a total anathema to the Anarchist concept. It has no Christian moral base. A base that involves such nonsense as 'homosexuality is evil'. Instead Anarchists have 'ethical considerations'.

Where there is an usurped authority, there is no freedom.

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Soren

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #162 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 3:57pm

Grey wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 12:26pm:

Instead Anarchists have 'ethical considerations'.

Where there is an usurped authority, there is no freedom.

What is the principle of those ethical considerations? Collectivism, utility (greatest happiness), individualism, metaphysics?

And what is the source of legitimate authority (not usurped) in an anarchist system? (BTW, I didn't realise there has even been a successful anarchist system anywhere.)

If you say you don't need any authority to organise a society, then we are in ROFLMAO territory. If there is a legit claim to authority, then we are back to the principle authorising some to have greater power and authority than others: collectivism, individualism, utility, metaphysics?

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Grey

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Re: Anarchism
Reply #163 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 10:28pm

Soren wrote on Apr 18^th, 2013 at 3:57pm:

[quote author=retrac link=1364174580/161#161 date=1366252008] Instead Anarchists have 'ethical considerations'.

Where there is an usurped authority, there is no freedom.

Quote:

What is the principle of those ethical considerations? Collectivism, utility (greatest happiness), individualism, metaphysics?

Reason. you don't have to have an all pervading theory to tell your right from wrong.

Quote:

And what is the source of legitimate authority (not usurped) in an anarchist system? (BTW, I didn't realise there has even been a successful anarchist system anywhere.)

Legitimate authority stems from respect that's earn't by displays of knowledge and/or good sense. It's freely, even lovingly bestowed by reasonable people and they are the overwhelming majority.

Quote:

If you say you don't need any authority to organise a society, then we are in ROFLMAO territory. If there is a legit claim to authority, then we are back to the principle authorising some to have greater power and authority than others: collectivism, individualism, utility, metaphysics?

If Anarchists wanted something that looked like chaos, we'd have nothing to complain about. Usurped authority and paranoid control procedures produce chaos. Individuals can act collectively. In some circumstances utilitarian concerns may work, in others they don't. Metaphysics? Keh!

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Anarchism Reply #164 - Apr 18^th, 2013 at 11:14pm So it's slogans and puffery, then. Thanks.
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