Australian Politics Forum - Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 60242
Here
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #45 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:27am

why dont we have this debate in 3 yrs time and see who is right.

I would think the Greens will have about 2 tough terms as a result of the hung parliament, I would think they will still look shakey in 3 years but the political spectrum will turn as people start to forget about the current situation and look at the alternatives again.

So far each time that the greens have peaked it has been to a higher peak. They then drop off for a few terms and have another good result but the trend has been upwards each peak is higher and each trough is also higher.

As long as they do nothing as stupid as the Dems with the GST and shed their entire base support they will survive.

Back to top

IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 60242
Here
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #46 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am

Macca: Quote:

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Howard never changed his mind he always supported a GST and what does that have to do with the democrats?

Macca: Quote:

The Democrats did exactly what they promised - they kept the bastards honest.

The democrats had promised each and every person who had voted for them that they would block the GST. They became the bastards who needed to be kept honest and the people who had voted for them never forgave them - that is the only reason they are gone today.

There was a very substantial campaign in 1998 saying that you could vote for John Howard in the Lower house and vote to block the GST in the senate.

In the end the senate vote was more than sufficient to achieve that goal, in my view that was where the genuine mandate was held.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51285
At my desk.

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #47 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

Quote:

so have you found a post-war example of a thrid party doing ANYTHING beyond rise and fall? no, you cant - because it hasnt happened.

Sure. The Nationals. And the Greens. Got any more silly questions? Perhaps you need an example from the last six months of a minor party starting from nothing then gradually taking over one side of the political spectrum from a major party?

You left out the Liberal party. 1945 - 1955, 1955, 1955, 1955 ...........1955.

Thanks dna.

Longy, is this a reasonable summary of your argument:

We cannot consider the historical example of the National Party.

We cannot consider the historical example of the Liberal Party, or any of the many minor and major parties that preceded it.

We cannot consider the example of the rise of the Labor party, whose unusual staying power since their rise appears to be the ultimate source of your position.

The only example we can consider is the Democrats, because they achieved a similar level of popularity (albeit from a centrist position - something fairly unusual) before falling. The Democrats are the one example you can find that you hope the Greens will follow, so that is the only historical example you are prepared to accept. Everyone else must also accept this as the only example. The only conclusion people can draw from this example is that the Greens will do exactly what the Democrats did. No other outcome is possible.

Roll Eyes

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Bobby.

Gold Member

Online

Australian Politics

Posts: 112781
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #48 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:05am

FD,
Quote:

The only conclusion people can draw from this example is that the Greens will do exactly what the Democrats did. No other outcome is possible.

The Greens will take power in their own right as the other parties have sold the workers out.

example:

Work Choices got rid of 2 weeks retrenchment pay for every year worked e.g.

20 years of service equaled 40 weeks retrenchment pay.

Rudd - said - "we'll get rid of work choices " but he & that liar Gillard
kept the retrenchment policy of Howard.

Now what do you get?

Answer - 12 weeks maximum pay - chicken feed for a lifetime of service.

Only the Greens will restore fairness.

Back to top

IP Logged

Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"? Reply #49 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:12am Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am: Macca: Quote: damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind Howard never changed his mind he always supported a GST and what does that have to do with the democrats? They supported the GST didn't they?
Back to top	Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number IP Logged

skippy.

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 20882
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #50 - Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:23am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am:

Macca: Quote:

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Howard never changed his mind he always supported a GST and what does that have to do with the democrats?

They supported the GST didn't they?

Actually they didn't support it, only the leader of the time did, so she got her ass kicked out as leader and left the party only to start another party that died in the ass, all as a result of supporting a lying little rodent. The democrats party, were totally against supporting it.

Back to top

freedivers other forum- POLITICAL ANIMAL
Click onWWW below

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51285
At my desk.

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #51 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 6:11pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

Quote:

so have you found a post-war example of a thrid party doing ANYTHING beyond rise and fall? no, you cant - because it hasnt happened.

Sure. The Nationals. And the Greens. Got any more silly questions? Perhaps you need an example from the last six months of a minor party starting from nothing then gradually taking over one side of the political spectrum from a major party?

You left out the Liberal party. 1945 - 1955, 1955, 1955, 1955 ...........1955.

Thanks dna.

Longy, is this a reasonable summary of your argument:

We cannot consider the historical example of the National Party.

We cannot consider the historical example of the Liberal Party, or any of the many minor and major parties that preceded it.

We cannot consider the example of the rise of the Labor party, whose unusual staying power since their rise appears to be the ultimate source of your position.

The only example we can consider is the Democrats, because they achieved a similar level of popularity (albeit from a centrist position - something fairly unusual) before falling. The Democrats are the one example you can find that you hope the Greens will follow, so that is the only historical example you are prepared to accept. Everyone else must also accept this as the only example. The only conclusion people can draw from this example is that the Greens will do exactly what the Democrats did. No other outcome is possible.

Roll Eyes

Longy, is this your argument?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #52 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 6:43pm

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

Quote:

so have you found a post-war example of a thrid party doing ANYTHING beyond rise and fall? no, you cant - because it hasnt happened.

Sure. The Nationals. And the Greens. Got any more silly questions? Perhaps you need an example from the last six months of a minor party starting from nothing then gradually taking over one side of the political spectrum from a major party?

You left out the Liberal party. 1945 - 1955, 1955, 1955, 1955 ...........1955.

Thanks dna.

Longy, is this a reasonable summary of your argument:

We cannot consider the historical example of the National Party.

We cannot consider the historical example of the Liberal Party, or any of the many minor and major parties that preceded it.

We cannot consider the example of the rise of the Labor party, whose unusual staying power since their rise appears to be the ultimate source of your position.

The only example we can consider is the Democrats, because they achieved a similar level of popularity (albeit from a centrist position - something fairly unusual) before falling. The Democrats are the one example you can find that you hope the Greens will follow, so that is the only historical example you are prepared to accept. Everyone else must also accept this as the only example. The only conclusion people can draw from this example is that the Greens will do exactly what the Democrats did. No other outcome is possible.

Roll Eyes

my position is to look at the post-war period and all you see is thrid parties rise and fall. that is ALL. and if you want we can have this debate in 6 years time when the greens support is <5%. the greens support base is mainly disaffected labor voters. When labor gets its act together (and it will take time) they will return and the Greens will be back with just their hard-core supporters... not many.

there is the australia party, th DLP, the NDP etc... same trajectory, same fate.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #53 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 6:44pm

skippy. wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am:

Macca: Quote:

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Howard never changed his mind he always supported a GST and what does that have to do with the democrats?

They supported the GST didn't they?

Actually they didn't support it, only the leader of the time did, so she got her ass kicked out as leader and left the party only to start another party that died in the ass, all as a result of supporting a lying little rodent. The democrats party, were totally against supporting it.

wrong again. they had a conscience vote and some supported it and some didn't. it passed just the same.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

skippy.

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 20882
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #54 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 7:40pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 6:44pm:

skippy. wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:23am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 11:12am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:44am:

Macca: Quote:

damn Howard took the GST to an election when he changed his mind

Howard never changed his mind he always supported a GST and what does that have to do with the democrats?

They supported the GST didn't they?

Actually they didn't support it, only the leader of the time did, so she got her ass kicked out as leader and left the party only to start another party that died in the ass, all as a result of supporting a lying little rodent. The democrats party, were totally against supporting it.

wrong again. they had a conscience vote and some supported it and some didn't. it passed just the same.

Rewriting history again, you like to do that. Roll Eyes

five senators backed it, while two said no way. At the same time the grass roots of the party ran a campaign against it, the overwhelming majority of Demorcrats members were against it. The party always listened to the party members, this time they didn't, and Lees paid the price with her ass being kicked out after a petition to remove her as leader, stop rewriting history. The party were against, only the dog Lees and the South African prick pushed for it, they were both hated by their own party for being dogs.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 7:51pm by skippy. »

freedivers other forum- POLITICAL ANIMAL
Click onWWW below

IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"? Reply #55 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 7:58pm The Labor Party has been 'Liberal' light for years. Now that it's finally imploded the rise of the Greens is inevitable. Ironically the debacle that is now the ALP will mark the turning point of a swing back to real left wing values.
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51285
At my desk.

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #56 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 8:21pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 6:43pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 10:52am:

Dnarever wrote on Mar 17^th, 2013 at 12:16am:

freediver wrote on Mar 16^th, 2013 at 11:38pm:

Quote:

so have you found a post-war example of a thrid party doing ANYTHING beyond rise and fall? no, you cant - because it hasnt happened.

Sure. The Nationals. And the Greens. Got any more silly questions? Perhaps you need an example from the last six months of a minor party starting from nothing then gradually taking over one side of the political spectrum from a major party?

You left out the Liberal party. 1945 - 1955, 1955, 1955, 1955 ...........1955.

Thanks dna.

Longy, is this a reasonable summary of your argument:

We cannot consider the historical example of the National Party.

We cannot consider the historical example of the Liberal Party, or any of the many minor and major parties that preceded it.

We cannot consider the example of the rise of the Labor party, whose unusual staying power since their rise appears to be the ultimate source of your position.

The only example we can consider is the Democrats, because they achieved a similar level of popularity (albeit from a centrist position - something fairly unusual) before falling. The Democrats are the one example you can find that you hope the Greens will follow, so that is the only historical example you are prepared to accept. Everyone else must also accept this as the only example. The only conclusion people can draw from this example is that the Greens will do exactly what the Democrats did. No other outcome is possible.

Roll Eyes

my position is to look at the post-war period and all you see is thrid parties rise and fall. that is ALL.

So tell us about the fall of the National Party? Or the Greens? Oh wait, we cannot look at them as examples either, can we?

Quote:

and if you want we can have this debate in 6 years time when the greens support is <5%.

I accept your surrender.

Quote:

there is the australia party, th DLP, the NDP etc... same trajectory, same fate.

Ah, the examples we are allowed to consider. Thanks for picking and choosing the evidence for us longy.

Quote:

When labor gets its act together (and it will take time) they will return and the Greens will be back with just their hard-core supporters... not many.

Have you ever bothered to consider the polling in terms of the competition between Labor and the Greens? I pointed out earlier that most of the drop in Greens support coincides with a drop in Labor's support in favour of the coalition. In fact the Greens even seem to suffer less. Do you have any evidence to support your prediction, other than wishful thinking?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

skippy.

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 20882
Gender: male

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #57 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 8:37pm

Grey wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 7:58pm:

The Labor Party has been 'Liberal' light for years. Now that it's finally imploded the rise of the Greens is inevitable. Ironically the debacle that is now the ALP will mark the turning point of a swing back to real left wing values.

Yea I agree. But I think the Greens have one major obstacle and that is preferential voting. I hate that I have to preference one of the major parties in the HORs.

Back to top

freedivers other forum- POLITICAL ANIMAL
Click onWWW below

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 51285
At my desk.

Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"?
Reply #58 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 8:44pm

skippy. wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 8:37pm:

Grey wrote on Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 7:58pm:

The Labor Party has been 'Liberal' light for years. Now that it's finally imploded the rise of the Greens is inevitable. Ironically the debacle that is now the ALP will mark the turning point of a swing back to real left wing values.

Yea I agree. But I think the Greens have one major obstacle and that is preferential voting. I hate that I have to preference one of the major parties in the HORs.

Why is that a problem skippy? Do you realise that your preferences will only flow to a major party after every minor party you prefer has been eliminated on the grounds that they cannot win the election? And that the existence of your later preferences does not in any way facilitate the elimination of those minor parties?

Alternatives like first past the post are 1000 times worse for minor parties.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Big Dave Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2164 Gender:	Re: Are the greens no longer seen as an "alternative"? Reply #59 - Mar 23^rd, 2013 at 8:50pm The only thing the Greens are is exclusive. These actions push people away from their party. If I was a refugee, gay , an abbo or a do-gooder I'd take notice of their little party.
Back to top	IP Logged