Australian Politics Forum - Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well

Dsmithy70

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #105 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #106 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:08pm

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

(1) The Migration Act referenced it

Yes, the Migration Act references it by saying that "illegal" is no longer applicable. The reference in the current Migration Act actually destroys your "argument".

"To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen."

In case you weren't aware Maqqa, it is now after 1 September 1994: versions of the Act using the term "illegal" are now superseded (it's a big word, I know, but look it up in a dictionary).

Before September 1994: "illegal entrant".

After September 1994: "unlawful non-citizen".

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:17pm by greggerypeccary »

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #107 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:29pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

The previous Howard governments' Pacific Solution policy, which incorporated TPV's, did not commence until 2001. Used in conjunction with TPV's the effect was drastic, as you can see in the graph below...

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Maqqa

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #108 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:30pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:08pm:

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

(1) The Migration Act referenced it

Yes, the Migration Act references it by saying that "illegal" is no longer applicable. The reference in the current Migration Act actually destroys your "argument".

"To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen."

In case you weren't aware Maqqa, it is now after 1 September 1994: versions of the Act using the term "illegal" are now superseded (it's a big word, I know, but look it up in a dictionary).

Before September 1994: "illegal entrant".

After September 1994: "unlawful non-citizen".

Yes

they are illegal

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #109 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:41pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

The previous Howard governments' Pacific Solution policy, which incorporated TPV's, did not commence until 2001. Used in conjunction with TPV's the effect was drastic, as you can see in the graph below...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BoatArrivals.gif

Cmon Puddle, we agree that Howards offshore processing "Stopped the Boats"
As already discussed the "offshore" part of that system is not stopping the boats now
And as I demonstrated TPV's didnt decrease arrivals just changed it from single men to women and children.

So why are you trying to say all we have to do is go back to Howards policy?
The offshore parts failing
Tpv's just encourage women and children to be on boats.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #110 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:45pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

The previous Howard governments' Pacific Solution policy, which incorporated TPV's, did not commence until 2001. Used in conjunction with TPV's the effect was drastic, as you can see in the graph below...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BoatArrivals.gif

Cmon Puddle, we agree that Howards offshore processing "Stopped the Boats"
As already discussed the "offshore" part of that system is not stopping the boats now
And as I demonstrated TPV's didnt decrease arrivals just changed it from single men to women and children.

So why are you trying to say all we have to do is go back to Howards policy?
The offshore parts failing
Tpv's just encourage women and children to be on boats.

The offshore part of Gillard's farcial border security policy is failing because people smugglers know Gillard doesn't have her heart in it, that she doesn't truly believe this to be the solution. She persists in refusing to bring back TPV's, so we have to ask - why? What does she have to lose by doing so? We've had more than 30,000 people arrive since 2007, so it isn't like re-introducing TPV's could make it any worse. It worked before and as far as we all know there is no reason why they won't work again because TPV's do not provide an opportunity for permanent residency at the end. That, in itself, is an effective deterrent.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #111 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:52pm

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:08pm:

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

(1) The Migration Act referenced it

Yes, the Migration Act references it by saying that "illegal" is no longer applicable. The reference in the current Migration Act actually destroys your "argument".

"To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen."

In case you weren't aware Maqqa, it is now after 1 September 1994: versions of the Act using the term "illegal" are now superseded (it's a big word, I know, but look it up in a dictionary).

Before September 1994: "illegal entrant".

After September 1994: "unlawful non-citizen".

Yes

they are illegal

No, they were illegal.

Learn to read my friend. Learn to read.

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #112 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:15pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

The previous Howard governments' Pacific Solution policy, which incorporated TPV's, did not commence until 2001. Used in conjunction with TPV's the effect was drastic, as you can see in the graph below...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BoatArrivals.gif

Cmon Puddle, we agree that Howards offshore processing "Stopped the Boats"
As already discussed the "offshore" part of that system is not stopping the boats now
And as I demonstrated TPV's didnt decrease arrivals just changed it from single men to women and children.

So why are you trying to say all we have to do is go back to Howards policy?
The offshore parts failing
Tpv's just encourage women and children to be on boats.

The offshore part of Gillard's farcial border security policy is failing because people smugglers know Gillard doesn't have her heart in it, that she doesn't truly believe this to be the solution. She persists in refusing to bring back TPV's, so we have to ask - why? What does she have to lose by doing so? We've had more than 30,000 people arrive since 2007, so it isn't like re-introducing TPV's could make it any worse. It worked before and as far as we all know there is no reason why they won't work again because TPV's do not provide an opportunity for permanent residency at the end. That, in itself, is an effective deterrent.

Well as you said in another thread we have 7 months to wait.

What will your excuse be if as I predict the boats still come after TPV's are introduced.

And before you respond in the expect way I will admit I was wrong if they stop.

OH and BTW its not Gillards offshore she wanted Malaysia, its Tones.

What was the manta

All the PM needs to do to stop the boats is pick up the phone to Naru

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:21pm by Dsmithy70 »

REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #113 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:38pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:15pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:45pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:29pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:44pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 4:13pm:

Then why did you post this in response to being shown historical data that proved TPV's increase the death toll for women & children.
What data??? You didn't prove anything.

Didn't you read and understand post 91?
It specificly shows the increase in women and children on boats from the departments own data.
It also specificly shows that TPV's didn't deter asslyum seekers in fact boat arrivals increased between their introduction on NOV 99 and 2001.

So if they failed in 99 to 01 and offshore processing is now failing how will they suddenly work when Tones PM?

The previous Howard governments' Pacific Solution policy, which incorporated TPV's, did not commence until 2001. Used in conjunction with TPV's the effect was drastic, as you can see in the graph below...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/BoatArrivals.gif

Cmon Puddle, we agree that Howards offshore processing "Stopped the Boats"
As already discussed the "offshore" part of that system is not stopping the boats now
And as I demonstrated TPV's didnt decrease arrivals just changed it from single men to women and children.

So why are you trying to say all we have to do is go back to Howards policy?
The offshore parts failing
Tpv's just encourage women and children to be on boats.

The offshore part of Gillard's farcial border security policy is failing because people smugglers know Gillard doesn't have her heart in it, that she doesn't truly believe this to be the solution. She persists in refusing to bring back TPV's, so we have to ask - why? What does she have to lose by doing so? We've had more than 30,000 people arrive since 2007, so it isn't like re-introducing TPV's could make it any worse. It worked before and as far as we all know there is no reason why they won't work again because TPV's do not provide an opportunity for permanent residency at the end. That, in itself, is an effective deterrent.

Well as you said in another thread we have 7 months to wait.

What will your excuse be if as I predict the boats still come after TPV's are introduced.

And before you respond in the expect way I will admit I was wrong if they stop.

OH and BTW its not Gillards offshore she wanted Malaysia, its Tones.

What was the manta

All the PM needs to do to stop the boats is pick up the phone to Naru

Unlike Gillard, who has had more positions on this issue than one of Craig Thomson's prostitutes has had in bed, Abbott and the Coalition has been steadfast for a decade in advocating offshore processing in conjunction with other aspects of the Pacific Solution - including TPV's and turning back boats when it is safe to do so. So your lie that Abbott said Gillard ONLY had to call Nauru is a pretty bold lie because he did not say that was ALL that Gillard had to do.

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Dsmithy70

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #114 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:51pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:38pm:

Unlike Gillard, who has had more positions on this issue than one of Craig Thomson's prostitutes has had in bed, Abbott and the Coalition has been steadfast for a decade in advocating offshore processing in conjunction with other aspects of the Pacific Solution - including TPV's and turning back boats when it is safe to do so. So your lie that Abbott said Gillard ONLY had to call Nauru is a pretty bold lie because he did not say that was ALL that Gillard had to do.

OK I'll take that.
Now how about answering my question?

Dsmithy70 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:15pm:

What will your excuse be if as I predict the boats still come after TPV's are introduced.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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rabbitoh07

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #115 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:51pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 6:38pm:

Unlike Gillard, who has had more positions on this issue than one of Craig Thomson's prostitutes has had in bed, Abbott and the Coalition has been steadfast for a decade in advocating offshore processing in conjunction with other aspects of the Pacific Solution - including TPV's and turning back boats when it is safe to do so. So your lie that Abbott said Gillard ONLY had to call Nauru is a pretty bold lie because he did not say that was ALL that Gillard had to do.

TPVs did not "stop any boats". THey just caused more deths at sea.

More than 8000 TPVs were issued to people who came to Australia by boat — most of whom went on to be granted permanent protection visas. It did not stop boats — in fact the evidence shows that more people got onto boats once this visa class was introduced with more than 6000 coming in 2001.

But it did change who was coming — because of the punitive condition placed on the TPV particularly keeping families apart, the demographics of who got onto boats changed from single men to more women and children. Just under 25% of arrivals in 2001 were children compared to some 6% before the TPV was introduced. And the result? Overcrowded boats and tragedies.
http://www.crikey.com.au/2012/07/03/coalitions-asylum-seeker-policy-lost-at-sea/

The only thing that Howard did that "stopped the boats" was tuning them back.

But of course - there are 2 problems with this -
1. The Navy (rightly) doesn't want to do it, because they realise is will cause deaths, and
2. Tony will have to explain why he opposed the ALP's Malaysian solution because the Malaysia has not signed up to the UN agreement on the treatment of refugees, while he wants to send people back to Indonesia, who have also not signed up to the UN agreement on the treatment of refugees,

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Peter Freedman Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5275 Wellington Gender:	Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well Reply #116 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 7:11pm A good argument by AP. The Liberals have been consistently heartless, while Labor has become heartless more recently. Both for tawdry political advantage.
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rabbitoh07

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #117 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 7:38pm

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:08pm:

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

(1) The Migration Act referenced it

Yes, the Migration Act references it by saying that "illegal" is no longer applicable. The reference in the current Migration Act actually destroys your "argument".

"To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen."

In case you weren't aware Maqqa, it is now after 1 September 1994: versions of the Act using the term "illegal" are now superseded (it's a big word, I know, but look it up in a dictionary).

Before September 1994: "illegal entrant".

After September 1994: "unlawful non-citizen".

Yes

they are illegal

No. Learn to read. They are "unlawful non-citizens"

Not illegal.

It is legal to seek asylum
It is not illegal to be an unlawful non-citizen.

An unlawful non-citizen with a legitimate claim for asylum will be granted a visa when their claim is verified.

At no time in this process has the person done anything illegal.

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #118 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 8:03pm

rabbitoh07 wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 7:38pm:

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:30pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 5:08pm:

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 2:17pm:

(1) The Migration Act referenced it

Yes, the Migration Act references it by saying that "illegal" is no longer applicable. The reference in the current Migration Act actually destroys your "argument".

"To avoid doubt, a non-citizen in the migration zone who, immediately before 1 September 1994, was an illegal entrant within the meaning of the Migration Act as in force then became, on that date, an unlawful non-citizen."

In case you weren't aware Maqqa, it is now after 1 September 1994: versions of the Act using the term "illegal" are now superseded (it's a big word, I know, but look it up in a dictionary).

Before September 1994: "illegal entrant".

After September 1994: "unlawful non-citizen".

Yes

they are illegal

No. Learn to read. They are "unlawful non-citizens"

Not illegal.

It is legal to seek asylum
It is not illegal to be an unlawful non-citizen.

An unlawful non-citizen with a legitimate claim for asylum will be granted a visa when their claim is verified.

- Very good! You're slowly catching on. However, when something is "unlawful", that means it is illegal.

At no time in this process has the person done anything illegal.

- Awww, wrong again! I thought you were getting better. They tried to enter Australia without a passport and visa. It is illegal to enter Australia without these documents under the Customs and Immigrations Acts.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Labor have now stuffed up Nauru as well
Reply #119 - Feb 25^th, 2013 at 8:11pm

Maqqa wrote on Feb 25^th, 2013 at 1:41pm:

I smashed both of you lefties on here the other day and you still have not learnt

It wasn't in regard to "Rudd's Kyoto Billions"
in fines, was it ?
Over that ratification ABBOTT confessed was a mistake by the Howard Government in not doing ?
Along with the "billions in compensation claims"
that a SORRY by the Government of the day would result in ?
That same SORRY Tony Abbott confessed was a "big mistake"
by the Howard Government, in not saying ?

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