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Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice. (Read 10704 times)
imcrookonit
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Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:06am
 
Shrinking fish at risk of being wiped out

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    February 1, 2013


AS FISH get smaller under man's environmental impact they will become more prone to predators and a crucial food source will become more endangered than thought obvious, warn scientists.     Sad

Previous research has found some key fish species dwindle in size as larger specimens are trawled out and climate change affects the food chain.   

But until now the broader impact of this shrinking has not been explored.

A team from Australia and Finland used computer simulation to predict what might happen should five species of fish decline in average length over a 50-year period.


The shrinkage was quite small, up to 4 per cent. Yet mortality from predators rose as much as 50 per cent, they found.

The repercussions for catches are significant.

Total biomass for four of the species declined as much as 35 per cent, and catches by the same margin, the researchers say in the Royal Society journal Biology Letters.

''Even small decreases in the body size of fish species can have large effects on their natural mortality,'' the team wrote.

The team looked at five southeast Australian trawl fisheries species - jackass morwong, tiger flathead, silver warehou, blue grenadier and pink ling.

Species biomass decreased for all but the grenadier, which also shrank in size but whose numbers actually rose up to 10 per cent as the fish moved to more coastal areas where it was less vulnerable to predators, according to the simulation.

Man is changing marine ecosystems worldwide - directly through fishing and indirectly through global warming, the researchers wrote. ''Fisheries management practices that ignore contemporary life-history changes are likely to overestimate long-term yields and can lead to overfishing,'' they warned.     Sad

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/environment/animals/shrinking-fish-at-risk-of-being-wiped-out-20130131-2dnh7.html#ixzz2JapJlQzy
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #1 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:26am
 
How are all those evil Secular humanist economic models and social engineering working out... Tongue
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #2 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:46am
 
Minimum sizes have a lot to blame for this. Basically we are eating the prize specimens and keeping the runts for breeders. I have seen fishermen attempt to play down the risks associated with this. They appear to have incorporated fisheries management legislation that is less than a generation old into some kind of fishing moral code and will cling to it like a safety blanket, while rejecting all alternative fisheries management tools (eg marine parks) that do not have the same problems and can even help to reverse the trend.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #3 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 9:04am
 
well all those whales and sharks we are saving will need to be fed... and I am all for never allowing huge animals like that starve..

I cant afford fish anyway..so wont worry me..
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #4 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 9:22am
 
Starvation is the way most top predators die Cods.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #5 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 9:55am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:46am:
Minimum sizes have a lot to blame for this. Basically we are eating the prize specimens and keeping the runts for breeders. I have seen fishermen attempt to play down the risks associated with this. They appear to have incorporated fisheries management legislation that is less than a generation old into some kind of fishing moral code and will cling to it like a safety blanket, while rejecting all alternative fisheries management tools (eg marine parks) that do not have the same problems and can even help to reverse the trend.


Are you suggesting no minimum size limits?

Not sure what your getting at....

I advocate slot sizes over just a minimum size. An example for me is fresh water Murray cod; I’d like to see a slot size of 60-80cm (example) anything smaller or bigger goes back.

Protects the big breeders, gives smaller fish a chance to spawn.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #6 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 10:29am
 
We should reduce our reliance on minimum sizes. For some species we should be able to do away with them completely. For example, as we get more no-take zones, more sedentary species will be overprotected compared to the species that move around more. We should be able to reduce or eliminate minimum sizes on these.

One problem with both minimum and maximum sizes is hooking mortality - just because you return it does not mean it survives or breeds successfully. It will however learn not to bite next time.

There is an urban myth that minimum sizes increase total catch in terms of weight because the little fish grow bigger and get caught again. In fact the opposite is true. We would catch more fish, in terms of both number and weight, if we relied less on minimum sizes. One reason is that fish learn. The other reasons are related to ecosystem biology - the little fish end up getting eaten etc rather than growing bigger and being caught again. Growth rate relative to amount consumed also drops. That is one reason why farmers for example sell most of their cattle at one year old, or even younger.

It is the big fish that are the successful breeders. Giving the smaller ones a chance may appeal to a sense of fairness, but it is pretty useless for stock management.

Basically, minimum sizes are about the worst possible fisheries management tool available. People have gotten used to them, taught them to their kids etc and invested emotionally in them.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #7 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 11:00am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2013 at 10:29am:
We should reduce our reliance on minimum sizes. For some species we should be able to do away with them completely. For example, as we get more no-take zones, more sedentary species will be overprotected compared to the species that move around more. We should be able to reduce or eliminate minimum sizes on these.

One problem with both minimum and maximum sizes is hooking mortality - just because you return it does not mean it survives or breeds successfully. It will however learn not to bite next time.

There is an urban myth that minimum sizes increase total catch in terms of weight because the little fish grow bigger and get caught again. In fact the opposite is true. We would catch more fish, in terms of both number and weight, if we relied less on minimum sizes. One reason is that fish learn. The other reasons are related to ecosystem biology - the little fish end up getting eaten etc rather than growing bigger and being caught again. Growth rate relative to amount consumed also drops. That is one reason why farmers for example sell most of their cattle at one year old, or even younger.

It is the big fish that are the successful breeders. Giving the smaller ones a chance may appeal to a sense of fairness, but it is pretty useless for stock management.

Basically, minimum sizes are about the worst possible fisheries management tool available. People have gotten used to them, taught them to their kids etc and invested emotionally in them.



Reduce the minimum size in no take zones?

If you think a fish once caught won’t bite next time, you have some serious research to do and stunning lack of practical knowledge.

Again your “urban myth” is reliant on fish learning not to bite the hook. I’d like to see a study that supports this. I’ve seen fish unhook then smash the bait straight away. I’ve caught fish with hooks and lures in their mouth.

I’d wager fish instinct greatly out weighs any “learning” as you put it.

You’ve put up nothing I can see that backs up what you are saying.

“the little fish end up getting eaten etc rather than growing bigger and being caught again”


So there should be no big fish…..??

Do you really want to see people with bag limits of 20cm bream/whiting/flathead/snapper?
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #8 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 11:37am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2013 at 8:46am:
Minimum sizes have a lot to blame for this. Basically we are eating the prize specimens and keeping the runts for breeders. .


Like that fine specimen in your nic pic FD?  Smiley
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #9 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 1:41pm
 
Quote:
Reduce the minimum size in no take zones?


Everywhere.

Quote:
If you think a fish once caught won’t bite next time, you have some serious research to do and stunning lack of practical knowledge.


It is well known. I have seen it myself. I have seen critics of marine parks use it as an argument against marine parks. Obviously some are quicker learners than others, but catching a fish with a hook in it does not mean fish can't or don't learn.

Quote:
Again your “urban myth” is reliant on fish learning not to bite the hook.


No it isn't. Even without learning you still have major problems with selective pressures on growth rates.

Quote:
So there should be no big fish…..??


I didn't say that either. I did draw actual conclusions if you would bother to read them. Here it is again for you: We would catch more fish, in terms of both number and weight, if we relied less on minimum sizes.

Quote:
Do you really want to see people with bag limits of 20cm bream/whiting/flathead/snapper?


It beats catching nothing.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #10 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 2:49pm
 
fish are smarter than i thought they were
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #11 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 3:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2013 at 1:41pm:
Quote:
Reduce the minimum size in no take zones?


Everywhere.

Makes no sense what so ever

Quote:
If you think a fish once caught won’t bite next time, you have some serious research to do and stunning lack of practical knowledge.


It is well known. I have seen it myself. I have seen critics of marine parks use it as an argument against marine parks. Obviously some are quicker learners than others, but catching a fish with a hook in it does not mean fish can't or don't learn.

Sorry. You need to do better than that. I've seen the same big Cod caught 2-3 times, fish will hit a lure and hook up, spit it out and smash it again. i have never seen any information that fish learn not to bite hooks - der food, der eat food, der looks like food, der eat fake lure food.


Quote:
Again your “urban myth” is reliant on fish learning not to bite the hook.


No it isn't. Even without learning you still have major problems with selective pressures on growth rates.

Examples please?


Quote:
So there should be no big fish…..??


I didn't say that either. I did draw actual conclusions if you would bother to read them. Here it is again for you: We would catch more fish, in terms of both number and weight, if we relied less on minimum sizes.

Why? I'm sorry i need facts here, studies that point this out.


Quote:
Do you really want to see people with bag limits of 20cm bream/whiting/flathead/snapper?


It beats catching nothing.


Grin - don't give up so easily

Please put up one study to back your assertion that minimum size limits on fish is a bad thing.

Huh

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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #12 - Feb 1st, 2013 at 7:05pm
 
Sure, there is one in the marine park article:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/fish/marine-parks-fisheries-management-tool.html#links

Also, the opening post is about this problem, though admittedly it is a bit vague.

Do you doubt the negative impact of minimum sizes on fish growth rates?
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #13 - Feb 3rd, 2013 at 10:53am
 
freediver wrote on Feb 1st, 2013 at 7:05pm:
Sure, there is one in the marine park article:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/fish/marine-parks-fisheries-management-tool.html#links

Also, the opening post is about this problem, though admittedly it is a bit vague.

Do you doubt the negative impact of minimum sizes on fish growth rates?


Absolutely.

I don't doubt the negative impacts of trawlers, long liners and netting easturies around the world.
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Re: Sorry Fish Is Off The Menu Till Further Notice.
Reply #14 - Feb 3rd, 2013 at 11:04am
 
Is that a yes? Do you doubt the negative impact of minimum sizes on fish growth rates?
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