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Yadda

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I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:11am

I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my intentionally and maliciously 'misunderstanding' ISLAM

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2012 at 11:36pm:

Yadda at least have the good grace to concede that you were just proven wrong in regards to what abrogates what (ie 2:190 is a Medinan verse and NOT and abrogated Meccan verse).

gandalf,

Don't be silly [don't be juvenile].

I won't concede my 'error' [to you], because as always, we are talking at cross purposes.

You want to highlight the [supposed] error and the 'misunderstanding' of the intricacies of 'abrogation' by a disbeliever.

While i am more interested in exposing the role [the function] which 'abrogation' plays, in determining the nature of the behaviour which moslems engage in, in their ongoing and never ending conflict with disbelievers [...attention to which, is precisely what moslems want avoid].

You want the argument to be about my [supposed] malicious and intentional error [in 'misunderstanding' a virtuous and benign ISLAM].

While i want the argument to be about ISLAM's undeclared [and intentional] malicious intent.

Now regarding 'abrogation';

Google;

Mecca verses abrogated

Quote:

.....Ibn Kathir, perhaps the Muslim world’s most popular Quran commentator, says Allah’s pardon of the unbelievers was repealed by Quran Chapter 9 and its verses of the sword

Kathir explains here (if you go there, scroll down to the bottom third of the page) that Quran 2:106, which advises Muslims to be tolerant toward unbelievers, has been canceled by verses in Quran Chapter 9 (which Muslim scholars generally agree was one of the last Quran chapters revealed). Kathir quotes part of Quran 9:5, but here’s the whole verse:

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And Kathir quotes part of Quran 9:29. Again, here’s the whole verse:

Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger [Muhammad] have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth [Islam], out of those who have been given the Book [Christian and Jews], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection [this subjection is a source of Islamic law's institution of dhimmitude, i.e., third-class legal status for non-Muslims].

Notice that 9:29 does not say “fight in self-defense.” It says “fight those who do not believe” in Islam.

http://sheikyermami.com/the-principle-of-abrogation-in-the-quran/

Quote:

....Chapter 9 of the Qur'an, in English called "Ultimatum," is the most important concerning the issues of abrogation and jihad against unbelievers. It is the only chapter that does not begin "in the name of God, most benevolent, ever-merciful."[54] Commentators agree that Muhammad received this revelation in 631, the year before his death, when he had returned to Mecca and was at his strongest.[55] Muhammad bin Ismail al-Bukhari (810-70), compiler of one of the most authoritative collections of the hadith, said that "Ultimatum" was the last chapter revealed to Muhammad[56] although others suggest it might have been penultimate. Regardless, coming at or near the very end of Muhammad's life, "Ultimatum" trumps earlier revelations.

Because this chapter contains violent passages, it abrogates previous peaceful content. Muhsin Khan, the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari, says God revealed "Ultimatum" in order to discard restraint and to command Muslims to fight against all the pagans as well as against the People of the Book if they do not embrace Islam or until they pay religious taxes. So, at first aggressive fighting was forbidden; it later became permissible (2:190) and subsequently obligatory (9:5).[57] This "verse of the sword" abrogated, canceled, and replaced 124 verses that called for tolerance, compassion, and peace.[58]

Suyuti said that everything in the Qur'an about forgiveness and peace is abrogated by verse 9:5, which orders Muslims to fight the unbelievers and to establish God's kingdom on earth.

http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam

LETS TALK ABOUT THE FUNCTION OF ABROGATION

Just as EVERY single 'position' which ISLAM promotes [in any moment of time] has a function beneficial to ISLAM's interests, so too the ISLAMIC doctrine of 'abrogation' has an important function which is beneficial to ISLAM's interests.

And the beneficial function of the doctrine of 'abrogation', is to [ALWAYS] present information about ISLAM [appropriate to the circumstances of the moment], which will best serve ISLAM's interests going forward.

MORE.....

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #1 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:13am

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST.....

AND IMO, THE TRUTH IS THAT; THE DOCTRINE OF ABROGATION IS THE SERVANT OF ISLAMIC DUPLICITY [in ISLAM's war against the disbelievers];

Two 'positions' are apparent;

Position #1;
PRESENTING A 'TOLERANT' ISLAM;

In those times when ISLAM seeks to secure a political 'foothold' in a new land, ISLAM will always [initially] present itself as being a benign and tolerant philosophy. [...i.e. moslems understand that to "frighten the horses" [by revealing their intent], makes no sense]

So moslems promote as 'mainstream' a benign and virtuous ISLAM;

"Let there be no compulsion in religion......."

Koran 2:256

AND;

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; .....And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression."
Koran 2.190-193

AND HOW DO MOSLEMS PRESENT Koran 2.190-193 IN THE WORLD???;

When ISLAM presents a face of tolerance to a local community; Koran 2.190-193 = = 'See! ISLAM is counselling against violence, and aggression, and oppression! And ISLAM is only counselling moslems fighting for the reason of self defence!'

But when moslems have the upper hand; moslems counsel that Koran 2.190-193 = = 'The authority of unbelief in society is unlawful, and unbelief promotes oppression against moslems! So, fight against the oppressors of moslems!'
i.e.
As being stated in the Koran; "And fight with them until....religion should be only for Allah," 2.193

The truth is that moslem aggression and violence is always justified [AND IS MADE LAWFUL by ISLAMIC religious doctrine], whenever moslem aggression and violence is being undertaken to spread ISLAM.

Moslem *community* aggression and violence against non-moslems is justified;
1/
whenever moslems encounter 'oppression' against moslems, within a non-moslem jurisdiction [this is usually 'code' for non-moslem locals rejecting *moslem* violence and/or the ISLAMISATION of their society]. [ <---- this is the circumstance where 'oppression' can mean; local moslems are being 'oppressed' because they are being 'compelled' to obey local, non-moslem laws.]

2/
whenever, and wherever, moslems encounter 'unbelief' and the rejection of Allah's perfect religion [within a Sharia jurisdiction!].

e.g.
Elsewhere the Koran [i.e. Allah!] counsels that 'those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil' and that 'those who reject Faith' are,
......oppressors of the people!;

"...And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of [i.e. for] those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?..."Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors;..."
Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan:.."
Koran 4.74-76

i.e.
From the point of view of ISLAM/moslems;
Wars with ISLAM/moslems, are caused,
1/
by non-moslems being non-moslems, and,
2/
by non-moslems rejecting the imposition of moslem lordship over them.

'If only the infidels would submit to moslem superiority [and the imposition of Sharia law], there would be no need for any conflict or war with the unbelievers!'

You can see, what a benign and tolerant philosophy ISLAM is, can't you ?
/sarc off

Position #2;
VIOLENT AGGRESSION;

Wherever the moslems are confident that Jihad operations can deliver [political] 'superiority' to the moslems, ISLAM will abandon presenting itself as being 'benign' and 'tolerant'.
Instead, then, the 'rightly guided' moslems will aggressively and violently use any means necessary, and i mean ANY MEANS!! necessary, in seeking to achieve absolute political power [e.g. Nigeria, Syria, Sudan, Somalia, southern Thailand, southern Philippines].

As per the Koran.....

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35
i.e. Those who disbelieve and resist moslem demands, are the enemies of Allah, kill them.
i.e. Whenever you have the upper hand, slay those who resist ISLAM's lawful [i.e. 'moral'] authority/superiority.

ANY MEANS!!

Google,
"rape jihad"

The *school children* of Beslan where first raped, and then they were murdered [in the name of ISLAM], by Allah's warriors;

Google,
beslan children raped jihad

Q.
Why rape and murder infidel school children ?

A.
Because local moslems had been indiscriminately murdered,
...because local moslems had been indiscriminately murder-ing infidels,
...because local moslems had been 'oppressed', by being compelled to obey the laws of the local non-moslem jurisdiction.

!!!!

MORE.....

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #2 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 3:13am

CONTINUED FROM LAST POST.....

[As a political 'device'] TERROR SERVES ISLAM'S POLITICAL INTERESTS

Terror is BOTH, the objective, and the method, to achieve and to maintain ISLAM's political 'superiority'!

i.e.
#1,
ISLAMIC authority [governmental power] is gained legitimately, when it is gained through the use of terror.

#2,
And, terror is a legitimate means to maintain ISLAMIC authority and superiority. [Koran 33.60,61]

And 'religious' ISLAM sanctions the use of terror, as a 'means' of 'promoting' political ISLAM in the whole earth.

Allah's Apostle said,

"I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy)...."

hadith/bukhari #004.052.220

".....I have been given superiority......; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies):....."

hadithsunnah/muslim/ #004.1062

You will have to excuse my use of those ISLAMIC sources, because i have been informed that those ISLAMIC sources are;

"historically unverified biographical accounts"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1354364015/17#17

So they are wholly unreliable.
......and i am using them maliciously!
/sarc off

+++

DECEIT;

In the pantheon of the political 'universe', we must understand that political ISLAM is a 'man for all seasons';

Whenever presenting the face of tolerance can serve ISLAM's [ultimate] interests, moslems will present that [false] face of tolerance.

But when the 'winds of fortune' change, and when the use of open or hidden violence can definitely help to secure the moslems interests/superiority, then moslems will pursue a course of open or hidden [i.e. 'renounceable'] violence.

WITH ISLAM, THE ['DECLARED', BUT] FALSE 'PEACE' IS ALWAYS [A MOMENT OF] A WAR OF ATTRITION.

And moslems are always sanctioned to always use the most appropriate means [hidden or open], in their 'Jihad operations' against the local disbelievers.

And the false 'peace' which moslems always promote [while they are politically weak], always presents many opportunities for moslems, to [falsely] accuse their enemies of using 'immoral' tactics.

While at the same time, moslems can always ostensibly maintain a moral 'high ground' [by appearing to promote a 'non-violence' stance].

Dictionary;
attrition = =
1 the action or process of gradually wearing down through sustained attack or pressure.
2 wearing away by friction.

THE EFFICIENCY OF ISLAMIC DECEIT

The false information which is presented about ISLAM today [so as to serve ISLAM's 'interests' today], is just as likely be discarded tomorrow, when a new set of circumstances, needs, and requirements, become 'apparent' to the local moslems.

And once we recognise the way in which moslems present 'information' [i.e. dis-information!] about ISLAM's [real] nature and intent, we can recognise that the 'information war' that is being waged against us 'disbelievers', is just another example of the fully MENDACIOUS and DUPLICITOUS nature of that philosophy, that we know as ISLAM.

But i am not holding my breath.

Google;

taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit

Google;

we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"

How Taqiyya Alters Islams Rules of War

http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #3 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 6:17pm

To be honest Yadda, after some very quick research, it becomes quite clear that no serious islamic scholar - or mainstream muslim understands this abrogation concept in the way you and answering-islam claim.

I found this statement by a muslim scholar quite interesting:

Quote:

The principal laid down in this passage – relating to the suppression of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur'an – has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah ("message") occurring in this context is also used to denote a “verse” of the Qur'an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses the Qur'an have been “abrogated” by God’s command before the revelation of Qur'an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion – which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs of his manuscript deleting one passage and replacing it with another – there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever declared a verse of the Qur'an to have been “abrogated”. At the root of the so-called “doctrine of abrogation” may lie the inability of some of the early Commentators to reconcile one Quranic passage with another: a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question had been “abrogated”. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the “doctrine of abrogation” as to which, and how many, Qur'an-verses have been affected by it, and, furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context of the Qur'an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contains on it. In short, the “doctrine of abrogation” has no basis whatsoever in historical fact, and must be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur'anic passage disappears immediately if the term ayah is understood, correctly, as “message”, and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible; for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to any part of the Qur'an itself..

~Dr. Muhammad Asad.

Pretty much refutes the simplistic spin you and answering-islam put on this.

As to 9:5 - which supposedly replaces the "self defence" and "coexistence" verses, all I'm going to say is the alleged abrogating and abrogated verses here are not contradictory, so as far as I'm concerned its a moot point.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Yadda

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #4 - Dec 16^th, 2012 at 10:59pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2012 at 6:17pm:

To be honest Yadda, after some very quick research, it becomes quite clear that no serious islamic scholar - or mainstream muslim understands this abrogation concept in the way you and answering-islam claim.

I found this statement by a muslim scholar quite interesting:

Quote:

The principal laid down in this passage – relating to the suppression of the Biblical dispensation by that of the Qur'an – has given rise to an erroneous interpretation by many Muslim theologians. The word ayah ("message") occurring in this context is also used to denote a “verse” of the Qur'an (because every one of these verses contains a message). Taking this restricted meaning of the term ayah, some scholars conclude from the above passage that certain verses the Qur'an have been “abrogated” by God’s command before the revelation of Qur'an was completed. Apart from the fancifulness of this assertion – which calls to mind the image of a human author correcting, on second thought, the proofs of his manuscript deleting one passage and replacing it with another – there does not exist a single reliable Tradition to the effect that the Prophet ever declared a verse of the Qur'an to have been “abrogated”. At the root of the so-called “doctrine of abrogation” may lie the inability of some of the early Commentators to reconcile one Quranic passage with another: a difficulty which was overcome by declaring that one of the verses in question had been “abrogated”. This arbitrary procedure explains also why there is no unanimity whatsoever among the upholders of the “doctrine of abrogation” as to which, and how many, Qur'an-verses have been affected by it, and, furthermore, as to whether this alleged abrogation implies a total elimination of the verse in question from the context of the Qur'an, or only a cancellation of the specific ordinance or statement contains on it. In short, the “doctrine of abrogation” has no basis whatsoever in historical fact, and must be rejected. On the other hand, the apparent difficulty in interpreting the above Qur'anic passage disappears immediately if the term ayah is understood, correctly, as “message”, and if we read this verse in conjunction with the preceding one, which states that the Jews and the Christians refuse to accept any revelation which might supersede that of the Bible; for, if read in this way, the abrogation relates to the earlier divine messages and not to any part of the Qur'an itself..

~Dr. Muhammad Asad.

Pretty much refutes the simplistic spin you and answering-islam put on this.

As to 9:5 - which supposedly replaces the "self defence" and "coexistence" verses, all I'm going to say is the alleged abrogating and abrogated verses here are not contradictory, so as far as I'm concerned its a moot point.

gandalf,

Thank you for the quote [that you posted] and for the information which it contains.

What it states, makes a lot of sense to me.

Personally i accept that the concept of Koranic 'abrogation' was always a fabricated 'device', which has been used by moslems [and which, imo, was 'manufactured' precisely to be used by moslems], to serve the interests of moslems - at 'this' moment in time.

And i concede that the clerics of all religions have done this.

If they see a 'need', clerics will 'move mountains' try to bend the meaning of scripture, or to give a new interpretation of scripture, which can be fashioned to serve the secular and worldly [but 'righteous'] 'interests', ...of, the clerics.

Politics, even religious politics, is 'a greasy pole'!! ...imo.

+++

"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"
Koran 2.106

.....which to me sounds remarkably similar [in 'action'] to the discarding of oaths, cited elsewhere in ISLAMIC texts;

"Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise."

Koran 66:2

"The Prophet said, "If I take an oath and later find something else better than that, then I do what is better and expiate my oath."."

hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #007.067.427
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.078.618
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.709
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.710
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.712
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #008.079.715

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Calanen

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #5 - Dec 25^th, 2012 at 7:47am

Yadda is one of the best read infidels about Islam that I've come across in Australia, which is a good thing.

The default position for most people is to know NOTHING about Islamic scripture or beliefs, and say, its a good religion, but all religions can be twisted for evil purposes...

and I love this one - oh but it depends on your interpretation. Every person who says this to me, I say, so what interpretations of Islam have you considered and decided that they were correct ones? And they always give me a blank stare as the penny drops...and then they become defensive, oh but I just rely on what the Islamic preachers say, do you know mroe than them do you?

The thought that Islamic preachers would not want to tell us the truth because we are being lambs led to the slaughter never occurred to them. But watch what muslims say to each other about their faith and about infidels on Arabic tv. It is not pretty and is coming a lot closer to the truth than the 'interfaith tolerance'; and respect rubbish that gets peddalled, and then the lefties get all misty eyed, its like a form of hypnosis on them....ignore all jihad, rapes, crime, violence wherever Islam is - as soon as someone says, respect, Islamophobia and interfaith tolerance. It is embarassing that so many of my own people are so easy to fool.

And they do laugh a lot about how stupid westerners are, and how easy they are to fool.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Yadda

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Re: I abrogate gandalf's presented views about my inte
Reply #6 - Dec 28^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Calanen wrote on Dec 25^th, 2012 at 7:47am:

Yadda is one of the best read infidels about Islam that I've come across in Australia, which is a good thing.

The default position for most people is to know NOTHING about Islamic scripture or beliefs, and say, its a good religion, but all religions can be twisted for evil purposes...

and I love this one - oh but it depends on your interpretation. Every person who says this to me, I say, so what interpretations of Islam have you considered and decided that they were correct ones? And they always give me a blank stare as the penny drops...and then they become defensive, oh but I just rely on what the Islamic preachers say, do you know mroe than them do you?

The thought that Islamic preachers would not want to tell us the truth because we are being lambs led to the slaughter never occurred to them. But watch what muslims say to each other about their faith and about infidels on Arabic tv. It is not pretty and is coming a lot closer to the truth than the 'interfaith tolerance'; and respect rubbish that gets peddalled, and then the lefties get all misty eyed, its like a form of hypnosis on them....ignore all jihad, rapes, crime, violence wherever Islam is - as soon as someone says, respect, Islamophobia and interfaith tolerance. It is embarassing that so many of my own people are so easy to fool.

And they do laugh a lot about how stupid westerners are, and how easy they are to fool.

As is evidenced by this recent exposure at JihadWatch;

Quote:

Hamas-linked CAIR protests exclusion from U.S. of Muslim cleric who preached jihad against Christians:

"Throats must be slit and skulls must be shattered"

Hamas-linked CAIR, ever-lauded by the mainstream media as a "civil rights organization," once again reveals its true colors.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/12/hamas-linked-cair-protests-exclusion-from-us-o...

The cowardly and wilful ignorance of ISLAM's intent, exhibited by our public servants, and by our political leaders [in Australia] is undoubtedly criminal, imo. [ <---- it would be, in a sane world.]

Referring to the item above;
IMO, members of CAIR should be prosecuted and [at the very least] expelled from the USA.

And the crime of members of CAIR ?

Clearly members of CAIR are aliens who are working in the USA for a foreign power [the nation of ISLAM] which has a hostile intent against the USA and its citizens.

But instead of CAIR being shut down, the members and associates of of CAIR are feted by [this current, and past] US Administrations, and by the mainstream media in the USA.

It is crazy!

It is insane!

The West is corrupted.

Today, imo, politics [throughout the West] is all about money, and power,
...instead of about service to the community/nation.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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