Australian Politics Forum - The nature/anatomy of money.

Grey

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The nature/anatomy of money.
Nov 8^th, 2012 at 11:17am

I wanted to reply to this post by Perceptions Now. But I felt it was getting off topic too far.

Quote:

Perceptions Now
WE NOW ENTER THE EVE OF THE BIG CRUNCH!

Grey - Promises promises The way I see it, tradesmen can go bankrupt overnight, a corner shop might take months, corporations take years (Bond Corp frinstance). How long did Rome take to fall? A bit up and down for centuries wasn't it? The global financial system hasn't made any logical sense in my lifetime; but as all the global 'players' need it to be, or cease to be players, I can't see a collapse happening anytime soon. I'll take the Irish solution.

Pereptions Now - As the Irishman says, "every country in the world has run up big Debts, so all that needs to happen is we find the person that everyone owes the Debt to & kill them".

Now, that was a funny line & got a good laugh!

However, the truth is that all these countries with their massive & growing Debts, they do all actually have one common Creditor, but that is part of the Problem, not part of a possible Solution.

The fact is, all the Debt has been borrowed from the future, the future of current & following generations!

We have taken a huge allocation away from our future, to pay for our massive indulgences, over the last 30-40 years, in the belief that Exponential Growth could go on, forever.

But, Exponential Growth forever is simply a fairy tale, it is overruled by the laws of nature & all bills become due & payable at some point, by someone & the facts would suggest that time is fast arriving!

So, Good Luck & watch the Debt!

So Percy takes a position that 'money' is REAL. That it is or represents some tangible thing.

I don't Percy

I think we left that behind in the days where we used sea shells, carob beans or bird of paradise feathers. And once the gold standard was abandoned and the securities industry got really cranked up with derivatives etc we were off to airy fairy land.

Growth economy matters and the drain on resources, sure. And you can say that the rate we've used up resources is tantamount to stealing from the future. But the future has always looked after itself anyway. Its probable our tips are tomorrows mine sites, and damned rich and concentrated deposits at that. Or it's just as possible that the future will simply use sea water and/or sand for the resource to feed replicators. While you complain about our using up oil reserves, you advocate replacing oil with uranium and depriving the future of that resource too.

I think if you made a fire of all the credit cards bank notes, deposit records, securities papers, mortgages, insurance policies etc. it might cause a bit of panic. Especially for those who have much of that stuff. But the backdrop of reality wont change. It wont mark the start of a new stone-age. Human knowledge endures. Within fifty years things would be back to normal; Albeit with a more realistic financial system.

I'm sure you and others have a better understanding of the financial system than I do. So I'm interested to see what you'll say. I challenge you to define what money represents. I'm pretty sure any definition can be shot down. You might have a clearer knowledge of the anatomy of the financial system, but y'know I don't need a detailed knowledge of the digestive system to know that excrement stinks Grin

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: The nature/anatomy of money. Reply #1 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 11:25am Money is a social construct. Cause when niggaz get tribal its all about survival nobody liable
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perceptions_now

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #2 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 11:41am

Grey wrote on Nov 8^th, 2012 at 11:17am:

I wanted to reply to this post by Perceptions Now. But I felt it was getting off topic too far.

So Percy takes a position that 'money' is REAL. That it is or represents some tangible thing.

I don't Percy

I think we left that behind in the days where we used sea shells, carob beans or bird of paradise feathers. And once the gold standard was abandoned and the securities industry got really cranked up with derivatives etc we were off to airy fairy land.

Growth economy matters and the drain on resources, sure. And you can say that the rate we've used up resources is tantamount to stealing from the future. But the future has always looked after itself anyway. Its probable our tips are tomorrows mine sites, and damned rich and concentrated deposits at that. Or it's just as possible that the future will simply use sea water and/or sand for the resource to feed replicators. While you complain about our using up oil reserves, you advocate replacing oil with uranium and depriving the future of that resource too.

I think if you made a fire of all the credit cards bank notes, deposit records, securities papers, mortgages, insurance policies etc. it might cause a bit of panic. Especially for those who have much of that stuff. But the backdrop of reality wont change. It wont mark the start of a new stone-age. Human knowledge endures. Within fifty years things would be back to normal; Albeit with a more realistic financial system.

I'm sure you and others have a better understanding of the financial system than I do. So I'm interested to see what you'll say. I challenge you to define what money represents. I'm pretty sure any definition can be shot down. You might have a clearer knowledge of the anatomy of the financial system, but y'know I don't need a detailed knowledge of the digestive system to know that

excrement stinks

Grey,
You just caught me on the way out, for a while, so I will come back with some more definitive later.

However, very briefly -
1) Money is both Real, but not real. (Yeah, I know?)
2) I agree, that's the way it is!

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #3 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 1:03pm

grey<<Within fifty years things would be back to normal; Albeit with a more realistic financial system. >>
....................................................................

That's what I reckon. Lack of finances won't finish us off, war might though, caused by lack of finances.

It's really just the end of one era and the beginning of another. People are just a bit on edge because they don't know what the other will be at the moment.

I agree, we will emerge as a more grounded society, with more realistic values. We went a bit mad about money in the last 30 years.

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perceptions_now

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #4 - Nov 8^th, 2012 at 1:33pm

Well, let me see, where to start?

Ok, let's look at Money, is it real or not?

No, it isn't real! Outside of it's only purpose in life, which is that of an "exchange mechanism", it has no inherent Economic value of its own.

However, in terms of "cause & effect", the effect of Money & its close relations, such as interest charges & other "financial mechanisms", Yes the effects of Money are certainly real.

That said, the effects of Money & its close relatives are only real, because it is all a matter of "Perceptions"!

If the exchange value of Money for other goods &/or for other brands of Money (other countries currency) comes into question, then the perceived "value" of the Money in question will quickly become like "Monopoly Money.

Those in Zimbabwe, the German Wiemar Republic & others will attest to that!

Of course, the other side of that coin is the US, where the size of their Economy, the effects that the US Economy has on the Global Economy, the fact that their currency has been regarded as the Global Reserve currency & their massive Military, HAS GIVEN THEM VAST ECONOMIC ADVANTAGES, VIA THE PURCAHSING POWER OF THE CURRENCY.

But, that was in the past, that situation is now changing rapidly and I expect that the US$ will Devalue significantly over the next few years, as their Economy Deteriorates & as they lose their status as the Global Reserve currency, following the abandonment of the exclusive use of US$'s as the settlement mechanism in Crude Oil purchases.

As for the Global drain on resources, particularly Energy (Oil, Coal & Uranium), but also Debt levels, it would be correct to say that we have always borrowed for today, against the future, BUT NEVER TO THE EXTREMES SEEN IN THESE CURRENT TIMES!

Growth has also been our Economic basis, particularly in the modern era.

But, with Growth at the levels seen in the modern era & particularly since the 1930's, in Population, Energy, general manufacturing, Food, water and I'm sure I've missed a few others, WE HAVE NEVER PREVIOUSLY INDEBTED THE FUTURE, TO PAY FOR OUR CURRENT INDULGENCES, ANYWHERE NEAR AS MUCH AS WE ARE TODAY!

Btw, I am not pro Uranium, for an Energy source, but I do see that it may have to be a stop gap, with Oil & Coal quickly Depleting, until &/or IF New Energy Sources arrive.

And yes, Uranium will also run out & all too quickly, so WE need to get of our butts quickly, as any Global change over would take quite some time.

In the interim, WE have collectively got ourselves into the current situation over some 80 years or so and as Obama and all the other Pollies & Economists are now in the process of finding out, THERE ARE NO SIMPLE &/OR QUICK SOLUTIONS!

So YES, THE EXCREMENT DOES STINK & IT WILL FOR QUITE SOME TIME, NO MATTER WHAT ANY POLLY MAY SAY!!!

In the interim, Good Luck & watch the Debt!

PS - Sorry, it's so damn long! And believe it or not, that IS the short version?

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Grey

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #5 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 3:06am

Perceptions are certainly it. Magicians earn a good living as entertainers. These days most magicians are honest, they fool us and we don't know how they do some of the things they do, but they're pretty upfront about it all being smoke and mirrors and they haven't really sawn the lovely assistant in two and joined her back together with supernatural powers.

Some magicians still earn a living as conmen. What some people can do with a pack of cards is pretty amazing and nobody should play poker outside of a reputable casino. Indian fakirs earn a very good living simply because gullible people don't realise that a small ball of ash goes a very long way. Magicians who work on the dark side will extract your cash through mechanisms like crystal ball gazing, tea leaf reading, relaying messagers from the dead... and then there's Numerology.

Numbers are fun, you can do and say anything you like with numbers. Want proof of the existence of god? A numerologist can produce that for you. Grin

Somewhere along the line economists lost control of the financial system and the numerologists took over.

Money is an 'exchange mechanism' How does that work? I sell my house in the Perth suburb of Wembley in 1978 for $ 25,000. I now have 25,000 exchange mechanisms instead of a house. That's what I want because I'm going to travel for a few years. Travel becomes my life, I write books and make videos, 30 years goes by, time to slow down I want to settle back home. I cruise around Wembley and by some chance see my old house is for sale again. It looks as though it's had some rough treatment obver the years but I feel nostalgia, we'll soon fix up the garden, and the roof, and paint, and replaster first, and whatever happened to the greenhouse? Anyway ring the agent and find out how much.

$1,250,000? Are we talking about the same address? The exchange mechanism isn't working. I need paper that says 'promise to pay the bearer on demand one 3 bedroom house on an 1/8th of an acre in Wembley.

Just how the hell did the cost of a house in Busselton, a relatively small seaside town on the arse-end of the least populated continent on Earth, (other than the icy bit) get to compare with Manhattan and the city of London? (EC1 City of London £406,000)

But the rising cost of real estate pales to insignificance against the derivatives market.

Quote:

The total notional amount of all the outstanding positions at the end of June 2004 stood at $220 trillion. (source: BIS: [3]). By the end of 2007 this figure had risen to $596 trillion and in 2009 it stood at $615 trillion. (source: BIS: [4])

Being the root cause of the GFC put derivatives on the nose for a few months, but hey when you've grown the market to ten times the annual GDP of the entire planet, (around 60 trillion) why stop there?

Quote:

After an increase of only 3% in the second half of 2010, total notional amounts outstanding of over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives rose by 18% in the first half of 2011, reaching $708 trillion by the end of June 2011.

Quote:

Quadrillion? That is a number only super computing engineers and astronomers used to use, not economists and bankers! For example, the North star is "just" a couple of quadrillion miles away,

http://www.siliconvalleywatcher.com/mt/archives/2008/10/the_size_of_der.php

What can you buy for $100 a tonne that takes 500 years to make? http://www.donnybrookmail.com.au/story/228450/forest-debate-rages/

As a fair minded person I've always found putting a monetary value on anything to be impossible. The entire point of Capitalism is to concentrate money so that more and more is held by less and less. It appears to me now that having a billion dollars is a lot like having a billion facebook friends Grin

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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: The nature/anatomy of money. Reply #6 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 4:12am money = debt = slavery = tyranny freewill namaste -:)
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Sir Spot of Borg Gold Member Offline WE ARE BORG Posts: 26594 Australia	Re: The nature/anatomy of money. Reply #7 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 4:47am If there was no money ppl would find some other way to be greedy. SOB
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gold_medal

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #8 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 6:12am

Grey wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 3:06am:

Perceptions are certainly it. Magicians earn a good living as entertainers. These days most magicians are honest, they fool us and we don't know how they do some of the things they do, but they're pretty upfront about it all being smoke and mirrors and they haven't really sawn the lovely assistant in two and joined her back together with supernatural powers.

Some magicians still earn a living as conmen. What some people can do with a pack of cards is pretty amazing and nobody should play poker outside of a reputable casino. Indian fakirs earn a very good living simply because gullible people don't realise that a small ball of ash goes a very long way. Magicians who work on the dark side will extract your cash through mechanisms like crystal ball gazing, tea leaf reading, relaying messagers from the dead... and then there's Numerology.

Numbers are fun, you can do and say anything you like with numbers. Want proof of the existence of god? A numerologist can produce that for you. Grin

Somewhere along the line economists lost control of the financial system and the numerologists took over.

Money is an 'exchange mechanism' How does that work? I sell my house in the Perth suburb of Wembley in 1978 for $ 25,000. I now have 25,000 exchange mechanisms instead of a house. That's what I want because I'm going to travel for a few years. Travel becomes my life, I write books and make videos, 30 years goes by, time to slow down I want to settle back home. I cruise around Wembley and by some chance see my old house is for sale again. It looks as though it's had some rough treatment obver the years but I feel nostalgia, we'll soon fix up the garden, and the roof, and paint, and replaster first, and whatever happened to the greenhouse? Anyway ring the agent and find out how much.

$1,250,000? Are we talking about the same address? The exchange mechanism isn't working. I need paper that says 'promise to pay the bearer on demand one 3 bedroom house on an 1/8th of an acre in Wembley.

Just how the hell did the cost of a house in Busselton, a relatively small seaside town on the arse-end of the least populated continent on Earth, (other than the icy bit) get to compare with Manhattan and the city of London? (EC1 City of London £406,000)

But the rising cost of real estate pales to insignificance against the derivatives market.

Being the root cause of the GFC put derivatives on the nose for a few months, but hey when you've grown the market to ten times the annual GDP of the entire planet, (around 60 trillion) why stop there?

What can you buy for $100 a tonne that takes 500 years to make? http://www.donnybrookmail.com.au/story/228450/forest-debate-rages/

As a fair minded person I've always found putting a monetary value on anything to be impossible. The entire point of Capitalism is to concentrate money so that more and more is held by less and less. It appears to me now that having a billion dollars is a lot like having a billion facebook friends Grin

Did you just discover inflation? Did you only just work out the supply/demand relationship?

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gold_medal

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #9 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 6:18am

Grey wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 3:06am:

Perceptions are certainly it. Magicians earn a good living as entertainers. These days most magicians are honest, they fool us and we don't know how they do some of the things they do, but they're pretty upfront about it all being smoke and mirrors and they haven't really sawn the lovely assistant in two and joined her back together with supernatural powers.

Some magicians still earn a living as conmen. What some people can do with a pack of cards is pretty amazing and nobody should play poker outside of a reputable casino. Indian fakirs earn a very good living simply because gullible people don't realise that a small ball of ash goes a very long way. Magicians who work on the dark side will extract your cash through mechanisms like crystal ball gazing, tea leaf reading, relaying messagers from the dead... and then there's Numerology.

Numbers are fun, you can do and say anything you like with numbers. Want proof of the existence of god? A numerologist can produce that for you. Grin

Somewhere along the line economists lost control of the financial system and the numerologists took over.

Money is an 'exchange mechanism' How does that work? I sell my house in the Perth suburb of Wembley in 1978 for $ 25,000. I now have 25,000 exchange mechanisms instead of a house. That's what I want because I'm going to travel for a few years. Travel becomes my life, I write books and make videos, 30 years goes by, time to slow down I want to settle back home. I cruise around Wembley and by some chance see my old house is for sale again. It looks as though it's had some rough treatment obver the years but I feel nostalgia, we'll soon fix up the garden, and the roof, and paint, and replaster first, and whatever happened to the greenhouse? Anyway ring the agent and find out how much.

$1,250,000? Are we talking about the same address? The exchange mechanism isn't working. I need paper that says 'promise to pay the bearer on demand one 3 bedroom house on an 1/8th of an acre in Wembley.

Just how the hell did the cost of a house in Busselton, a relatively small seaside town on the arse-end of the least populated continent on Earth, (other than the icy bit) get to compare with Manhattan and the city of London? (EC1 City of London £406,000)

But the rising cost of real estate pales to insignificance against the derivatives market.

Being the root cause of the GFC put derivatives on the nose for a few months, but hey when you've grown the market to ten times the annual GDP of the entire planet, (around 60 trillion) why stop there?

What can you buy for $100 a tonne that takes 500 years to make? http://www.donnybrookmail.com.au/story/228450/forest-debate-rages/

As a fair minded person I've always found putting a monetary value on anything to be impossible. The entire point of Capitalism is to concentrate money so that more and more is held by less and less. It appears to me now that having a billion dollars is a lot like having a billion facebook friends Grin

Well that is todays dumbest quote.

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perceptions_now

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #10 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:29am

Grey,
As I said, in the following original post, this provides a little background on inflation.

perceptions_now wrote on Aug 30^th, 2010 at 2:48pm:

Crash Course: Chapter 10 - Inflation (1 of 2) by Chris Martenson

Crash Course: Ch. 10 - Inflation (Pt. 2) & Chapter 11 - How Much is a Trillion? by Chris Martenson

===========
A little background on Inflation!

Btw, the video also provides some ground on what a "Trillion" is, but it doesn't take the next step to a Quadrillion, so according to the US system it is -
1,000,000,000,000,000

For the lead up -
1,000 is a thousand
1,000,000 is a Million
1,000,000,000 is a Billion
1,000,000,000,000 is a Trillion
1,000,000,000,000,000 is a quadrillion

Oh & you're right, when you take into consideration that the GDP of the largest Economy on the planet is some $16 Trillion, which is most likely inflated beyond reality, having derivatives markets approaching or perhaps now beyond a Quadrillion, has nothing to do with Real World Economics and more to do with gamblers & conmen!

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perceptions_now

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #11 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:36am

Anyone, looking for more answers or simply more questions, try the following -

perceptions_now wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 4:57pm:

Chris Martensons Crash Course

Anyone wanting to get a holistic handle on current & future events, including Financial issues, would do well to review all of the following!

Personally, I would view Chapter 19, for an overview, then go back to Chapter’s 1 thru 18, to get a full perspective. Finally, look at Chapter 20 to view, What should we do?

The following observation of Arthur Schopenhauer is included in these videos and is very apt!

All Truth passes through three stages.

First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Chapter 1 – Three Beliefs

Chapter 2 – The three E’s

Chapter 3 – Exponential Growth

Chapter 4 – Compounding is the Problem

Chapter 5 – Growth Vs Prosperity

Chapter 6 – What is Money?

Chapter 7 – Money Creation

Chapter 8 – The Fed & Money Creation

Chapter 9 – A brief History of US Money

Chapter 10 - Inflation

Chapter 11 – How much is a TRILLION?

Chapter 12 – DEBT (1 of 2)

Chapter 12 – DEBT (2 of 2)

Chapter 13 – A National Failure to Save (1 of 2)

Chapter 13 – A National Failure to Save (2 of 2)

Chapter 14 – Assets & Demographics (1 of 2)

Chapter 14 – Assets & Demographics (2 of 2)

Chapter 15 – Bubbles (1 of 2)

Chapter 15 – Bubbles (2 of 2)

Chapter 16 – Fuzzy Numbers (1of 2)

Chapter 16 – Fuzzy Numbers (2of 2)

Chapter 17a – Peak Oil (1 of 2)

Chapter 17a – Peak Oil (2 of 2)

Chapter 17b – Energy Budgeting

Chapter 17c – Energy & the Economy

Chapter 18 – Environment Data (1 of 2)

Chapter 18 – Environment Data (2 of 2)

Chapter 19 – Future Shock

Chapter 20 – What should I do?
http://vodpod.com/watch/1239314-crash-course-chapter-20-what-should-i-do-chris-m...

perceptions_now wrote on Sep 20^th, 2010 at 9:35pm:

Arithmetic, Population & Energy

Dr Albert Bartlett

(Part 1 of 8)

(Part 2 of 8)

(Part 3 of 8)

(Part 4 of 8)

(Part 5 of 8)

(Part 6 of 8)

(Part 7 of 8)

(Part 8 of 8)

The Bacteria comparison in Chapter 3, is apt!

But, there are a few other apt observations –
1) Technology Optimists will always be able to solve all of our Population Growth, Food, Energy & Resources problems?
2) Thinking is upsetting, it tells us things, we’d rather not know!
3) The chief source of problems, is solutions!
4) Facts do not cease to exist, simply because they are ignored!
5) The 1st Law of Sustainability, is that Population growth &/or growth in the rates of Consumption of Resources
CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED!
6) The greatest shortcoming of the human race, is OUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE EXPONENTIAL FUNCTION!

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gold_medal

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #12 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 8:55am

The first law of sustainability is bogus if it does not (as you do not) accept that the nature of resources CHANGES. New technologies come along that make previous unusable resources, viable. Even newer scifi-like technologies such as gravity-mining and matter/antimatter reactors and replication technology would render that so-called 'law' irrelevant.

That silly 'law' also tends to assume linear or logarithmic UPWARD trends. It takes next to no account of how predictive trend analysis is often flawed. Population trends are the classic case as where 40 years ago the population expectations were based on never-changing rates of replacement only to be proven completely wrong. Population growth and retraction are a function of economics.

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Ex Dame Pansi Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 24168	Re: The nature/anatomy of money. Reply #13 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 9:06am Thanks perceptions, that's a lot of work you did there, so that we can be better informed, thus better prepared. Knowledge is power.
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Grey

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Re: The nature/anatomy of money.
Reply #14 - Nov 9^th, 2012 at 10:30am

gold_medal wrote on Nov 9^th, 2012 at 6:18am:

Well that is todays dumbest quote.

What we have here, is an example of RW imaginative ability. What happens when Capitalism reaches its absurd apogee, and one person has all the money? No, they will NOT have all the power. In fact people will have abandoned that particular means of keeping score long before that point has been reached. At what point will money be abandoned as having any meaning? When 10 have it all? 10,000? 10,000,000? In fact people are abandoning money already, LETS schemes are springing up all over. The black economy is thriving, cocaine and heroin have more stability as 'mechanisms of exchange' than any currency.

Securities packages are mad games of pass the parcel where everytime the parcel changes hands more paper is added and called 'value'. When the music stops nobody wants to know what is hidden. In anycase a quadrillion derivatives would take the lifetime of the planet to undo and the life of the universe to divine any meaning. Best to put on another record and keep going aye? Grin

Don't talk to me about 'supply and demand' driving inflation; the driver is numerology.

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