Australian Politics Forum - does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?

Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #405 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:30am

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 8^th, 2012 at 11:32am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 7^th, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Or stone to death young rape victims?

Yes I posted this and Abu must have deleted it. Whatever happened to the truth ?

Quote:

Siddqa, a 25-year-old Muslim girl, standing waist-deep in a hole in the ground.
She is entirely hidden in a blue burka. Like rabid dogs, hundreds of evil! cowardly! savage! Muslim men from the village are gathered as two mullahs pass sentence. As Taliban fighters look on, the sentence is passed and she is found guilty of adultery.

The stoning lasts two + minutes. Hundreds of rocks - some larger than a man's fist - are thrown at her head and body. As brave Siddqa struggles for her life, she tries to crawl out of the hole 1:06 but she is beaten back by the stones, then a huge boulder is then thrown at her head 1:20 her burka is soaked in blood, and she collapses inside the hole.

Incredibly Siddqa was still alive at this point. The mullahs are heard saying she should be left alone. But a Taliban fighter steps forward with a rifle and she is shot three times in the head, (This scene was edited out)

Then her lover, Khayyam, is brought to the crowd. His hands are tied behind his back. Before he is blindfolded he looks into the mobile phone camera. He appears defiant.

The stoning attack on him was just as ferocious. His body, lying face down, jerks as the rocks meet their target. He is heard to be crying for mercy! but he is soon to be silent...

The couple had earlier eloped to Pakistan, but were lured back with the false promise that they would not be harmed.

The alleged lovers, who were engaged to be married to other people (Arranged forced marriages) were arrested by the Taliban on the request of their own flesh and blood families after they tried to elope.

Terrible terrible business... I'm am curious to know what Abu thinks of such punishments as these inhuman and horrific images portray.

More than that, I would like to know from Abu what Western Moderate Muslims are doing to stamp out this awful awful behaviour by their brothers of Islam.

Just shocking!

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Sir lastnail

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #406 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:49am

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:05am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

I have seen plenty of white converts in my life.
You are all the same, desperate to be accepted by your alleged "brothers".

But you know deeply they dont. And so you become more extreme and then more outspoken.

I seek only acceptance from my Creator.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 10:05am:

You are not alone there are others like you.
I dont know what social incident cause you to reject your own heritage and take someone else.

The "social incident" was my realisation that the society I live in is on a collision course with decay and destruction. Each generation it sinks deeper and deeper into an abyss of decadence, and I refuse to go down with it.

tell that to your rich arab oily mates Wink

and what's with the long white shirts and goatee beards ?

you look like a bunch of philistines, and you look even sillier holding a smart phone and driving a late model SUV with your ten kids in it !! You're pretty quick on the uptake when it comes to using western decadent technology Wink

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Sir lastnail

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #407 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:50am

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 8^th, 2012 at 11:32am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 7^th, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Or stone to death young rape victims?

Yes I posted this and Abu must have deleted it. Whatever happened to the truth ?

Quote:

Siddqa, a 25-year-old Muslim girl, standing waist-deep in a hole in the ground.
She is entirely hidden in a blue burka. Like rabid dogs, hundreds of evil! cowardly! savage! Muslim men from the village are gathered as two mullahs pass sentence. As Taliban fighters look on, the sentence is passed and she is found guilty of adultery.

The stoning lasts two + minutes. Hundreds of rocks - some larger than a man's fist - are thrown at her head and body. As brave Siddqa struggles for her life, she tries to crawl out of the hole 1:06 but she is beaten back by the stones, then a huge boulder is then thrown at her head 1:20 her burka is soaked in blood, and she collapses inside the hole.

Incredibly Siddqa was still alive at this point. The mullahs are heard saying she should be left alone. But a Taliban fighter steps forward with a rifle and she is shot three times in the head, (This scene was edited out)

Then her lover, Khayyam, is brought to the crowd. His hands are tied behind his back. Before he is blindfolded he looks into the mobile phone camera. He appears defiant.

The stoning attack on him was just as ferocious. His body, lying face down, jerks as the rocks meet their target. He is heard to be crying for mercy! but he is soon to be silent...

The couple had earlier eloped to Pakistan, but were lured back with the false promise that they would not be harmed.

The alleged lovers, who were engaged to be married to other people (Arranged forced marriages) were arrested by the Taliban on the request of their own flesh and blood families after they tried to elope.

Terrible terrible business... I'm am curious to know what Abu thinks of such punishments as these inhuman and horrific images portray.

More than that, I would like to know from Abu what Western Moderate Muslims are doing to stamp out this awful awful behaviour by their brothers of Islam.

Just shocking!

he's in denial and makes some lame excuse that they are not part of his scene Wink

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 121149 Melbourne Gender:	Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia? Reply #408 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 12:12pm Nail, Quote: he's in denial and makes some lame excuse that they are not part of his scene Abu wants Sharia law but not the stonings to death?
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Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #409 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 12:41pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:50am:

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 8^th, 2012 at 11:32am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Sep 7^th, 2012 at 8:51pm:

Or stone to death young rape victims?

Yes I posted this and Abu must have deleted it. Whatever happened to the truth ?

Quote:

Siddqa, a 25-year-old Muslim girl, standing waist-deep in a hole in the ground.
She is entirely hidden in a blue burka. Like rabid dogs, hundreds of evil! cowardly! savage! Muslim men from the village are gathered as two mullahs pass sentence. As Taliban fighters look on, the sentence is passed and she is found guilty of adultery.

The stoning lasts two + minutes. Hundreds of rocks - some larger than a man's fist - are thrown at her head and body. As brave Siddqa struggles for her life, she tries to crawl out of the hole 1:06 but she is beaten back by the stones, then a huge boulder is then thrown at her head 1:20 her burka is soaked in blood, and she collapses inside the hole.

Incredibly Siddqa was still alive at this point. The mullahs are heard saying she should be left alone. But a Taliban fighter steps forward with a rifle and she is shot three times in the head, (This scene was edited out)

Then her lover, Khayyam, is brought to the crowd. His hands are tied behind his back. Before he is blindfolded he looks into the mobile phone camera. He appears defiant.

The stoning attack on him was just as ferocious. His body, lying face down, jerks as the rocks meet their target. He is heard to be crying for mercy! but he is soon to be silent...

The couple had earlier eloped to Pakistan, but were lured back with the false promise that they would not be harmed.

The alleged lovers, who were engaged to be married to other people (Arranged forced marriages) were arrested by the Taliban on the request of their own flesh and blood families after they tried to elope.

Terrible terrible business... I'm am curious to know what Abu thinks of such punishments as these inhuman and horrific images portray.

More than that, I would like to know from Abu what Western Moderate Muslims are doing to stamp out this awful awful behaviour by their brothers of Islam.

Just shocking!

he's in denial and makes some lame excuse that they are not part of his scene Wink

I'd rather hear from Abu himself what he thinks of this particular application of Islam and if he is against it, what he does to protest against it.

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abu_rashid

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #410 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:32pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 12:41pm:

I'd rather hear from Abu himself what he thinks of this particular application of Islam and if he is against it, what he does to protest against it.

Adultery is a crime under Islamic law, and a capital one at that. What I find wrong with the video is that it appears to be not a lawful conviction and sentence, but a vigilante slaying, which I definitely disagree with. This kind of event is a symptom of a tribalistic and lawless society that's lived for decades under foreign warmongering and occupation. Me (or anyone else for that matter) protesting against such an act would be a waste of time. Protest against the conditions that cause such a situation to exist. Cure the cause and the symptoms will disappear.

What are you doing to protest against the vast multitude of injustices being carried out all throughout the Western world? Do you even know about them? Do you agree with them?

These kinds of questions emanate from a mind that is not the least bit interested in a sincere resolution for said people, but instead is interested only in de-legitimising their opposition in an argument.

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Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #411 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:55pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 12:41pm:

I'd rather hear from Abu himself what he thinks of this particular application of Islam and if he is against it, what he does to protest against it.

Adultery is a crime under Islamic law, and a capital one at that. What I find wrong with the video is that it appears to be not a lawful conviction and sentence, but a vigilante slaying, which I definitely disagree with.

It 'appears to be an unlawful conviction'! What does that mean Abu? What differences in appearance exist between a lawful and unlawful conviction and sentence is the religion of Islam?

Quote:

This kind of event is a symptom of a tribalistic and lawless society that's lived for decades under foreign warmongering and occupation.

I'm confused Abu. Certainly they are tribal, but lawless? Looks to me like they are applying the Law of Allah which is more powerful and significant for the followers of Islam than any mere 'rule of law' applied by The State.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 121149 Melbourne Gender:	Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia? Reply #412 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 3:27pm Abu, Quote: Adultery is a crime under Islamic law, and a capital one at that. Hi Abu, OK - so you agree with stoning a woman to death? Abu - that is bronze age savagery - just admit it.
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abu_rashid

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #413 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 3:35pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:55pm:

It 'appears to be an unlawful conviction'! What does that mean Abu? What differences in appearance exist between a lawful and unlawful conviction and sentence is the religion of Islam?

It means it looks more like a mob taking the law into their own hands.

Imagine if the U.S were to be plunged into civil war, the government was completely dismantled, a puppet government was installed by China, that only really held sway within suburban Washington D.C.

How do you think the various militias and so forth in the U.S might respond? My guess is they'd resort to vigilantism and they'd start implementing what they envisioned U.S law to be. Public lynchings, mob violence, and vigilante slayings would be pretty rampant I'd think.

Afghanistan is pretty much what I've just described above.

I'm sure there's plenty of U.S citizens today, who believe in their country's adherence to capital punishment, but who would not necessarily think such vigilantism would be good.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:55pm:

I'm confused Abu. Certainly they are tribal, but lawless? Looks to me like they are applying the Law of Allah which is more powerful and significant for the followers of Islam than any mere 'rule of law' applied by The State.

They are applying it haphazardly in a vigilante style it seems. There is no system in place, which regulates whether what they are doing is correct or not. I do not support a vigilante style of makeshift justice.

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Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #414 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 4:45pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 3:35pm:

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 1:55pm:

It 'appears to be an unlawful conviction'! What does that mean Abu? What differences in appearance exist between a lawful and unlawful conviction and sentence is the religion of Islam?

It means it looks more like a mob taking the law into their own hands.

I asked you, specifically, to identify the differences in appearance between a lawful and unlawful stoning to death Abu... do you not know how to address that?

I'll admit that I hadn't viewed the video. I didn't think I needed to. The text attached to that video explained perfectly clearly what was contained in the video and no one seemed to question the text as being unrepresentative of the video... until you claimed it was a mob that is.

By mob, I assumed that you were referring to a disorderly crowd determined to cause trouble and it is with that definition in mind, that I and a friend of mine watched that video three times.

I am satisfied that the text reflects very well what the video contains. I am also satisfied that it was not a mob. It was an organised group with an Imam in charge of proceedings. The charges and the punishment were read out. The stoning was organised and not frenzied in any way. During the stoning of the woman, when the Imam commanded the stoning to cease... it ceased immediately. When satisfied that the woman was still alive, the Imam commanded that the stoning resume and it resumed. These are not the actions of a mob Abu.

So again, since this is not a mob, but rather an orderly group with a Imam in full control of proceedings, I am at a loss to understand the difference in appearance between a lawful and lawless application of Islamic Laws.

Would you please explain the difference? What, for example, does a lawful stoning to death look like?

I don't think anyone is questioning the charge of Adultery. Clearly they two concerned were intended for different people and defied the constraints of their arranged marriages and therefore have acted adulterously towards their respective intended partners.

Of course it could be that the mechanisms of justice are what you question... in which case you would need to explain that. Accusing rural tribes with an Imam of being vigilantes without any reasons to support that... doesn't cut it for me. Should there have been a trial for example? Although, given that there are many 'tribal' Muslim communities I have to wonder why it is that you believe that Imam cannot exercise the will of Allah, according to the doctrines of Allah.

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« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2012 at 5:35pm by Sappho »

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abu_rashid

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #415 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:10pm

An Imam is a leader of prayer, not a judge, nor executioner. The fact an Imam is present has little more bearing than if a green grocer is present.

These people do not have a functioning government, they have a wartime commission that metes out "justice" in the heat of the moment. It therefore does not accurately represent Islamic law.

I was not speaking about the orderliness of the action itself, but the orderliness of the process, which I really don't think is in place, with what we know about the current situation in Afghanistan.

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« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:17pm by abu_rashid »

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Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #416 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:31pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:10pm:

An Imam is a leader of prayer, not a judge, nor executioner. The fact an Imam is present has little more bearing than if a green grocer is present.

Then please explain the following...
Quote:

To say that law must be divine is that God Himself enacts the law and reveals it in the Qur’an, or the Prophet (s) or an infallible Imam (‘a) is given the authority to enact the law, or those who are vested with authority by the Prophet or an infallible Imam (‘a) enact different orders in diverse circumstances. source

Quote:

These people do not have a functioning government, they have a wartime commission that metes out "justice" in the heat of the moment. It therefore does not accurately represent Islamic law.

Can Islam only function where there is a functioning government? Also, an Imam is above reproach and incapable of sin... yet you are questioning the Imam's authority to do the will of Allah. Why?

Quote:

I was not speaking about the orderliness of the action itself, but the orderliness of the process, which I really don't think is in place, with what we know about the current situation in Afghanistan.

Could you explain what you mean please? And then keep that explanation in context with the crime and punishment under discussion.

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abu_rashid

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #417 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:01pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Then please explain the following...
Quote:

To say that law must be divine is that God Himself enacts the law and reveals it in the Qur’an, or the Prophet (s) or an infallible Imam (‘a) is given the authority to enact the law, or those who are vested with authority by the Prophet or an infallible Imam (‘a) enact different orders in diverse circumstances. source

Given the use of the word "infallible", I'd say it's Shi'a. No such beliefs exist in mainstream Islam.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Can Islam only function where there is a functioning government?

Islamic law and governance, of course. Can any state system be said to be functioning when it does not wield the reigns of a functioning government? This concept is not peculiar to Islam, it's a general principle.

However your use of the term "Islam" there suggests you're asking whether Islam in any sense can function without a government. Yet it does function, but only on a personal level, and on a personal level, people have no authority to enact punishments.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Also, an Imam is above reproach and incapable of sin... yet you are questioning the Imam's authority to do the will of Allah. Why?

Those are definitely Shi'a beliefs. This has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream Islam, sorry.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 6:31pm:

Could you explain what you mean please? And then keep that explanation in context with the crime and punishment under discussion.

Sure. The country of Afghanistan does not have a functioning government, therefore the "justice" being meted out there, is meted out within that context. Therefore I find issue with it, and I do not consider it representative of the justice system I am a proponent of.

Can it be any simpler?

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« Last Edit: Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:22pm by abu_rashid »

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Sappho

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #418 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm

abu_rashid wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:01pm:

Given the use of the word "infallible", I'd say it's Shi'a. No such beliefs exist in mainstream Islam.

OK... fair enough. So who has the authority to enact law then? What qualifications are required to enact the Koran?

Quote:

Islamic law and governance, of course. Can any state system be said to be functioning when it does not wield the reigns of a functioning government? This concept is not peculiar to Islam, it's a general principle.

Islam is a faith I thought, in the same way that Judaism is a faith... I struggle to consider them as State Systems... although I can see how a State System can be formed by Islam for Islam.

Nonetheless, State Systems formed by Islam seem somewhat unstable... with the exception of Saudi Arabia of course.

Quote:

However your use of the term "Islam" there suggests you're asking whether Islam in any sense can function without a government. Yet it does function, but only on a personal level.

So you don't think that Islam can operate on a community level then and that because of this, the judgement and punishment against the couple in question lacked Justice?

Or is it that you don't believe that Islam can operate on a community level where it is that the Nation is occupied and because of this, the judgement and punishment against the Muslim couple lacked Justice?

Quote:

Those are definitely Shi'a beliefs. This has absolutely nothing to do with mainstream Islam, sorry.

Your clarification of the difference is not a reason to apologise for same... but thank you anyway.

Quote:

Sure. The country of Afghanistan does not have a functioning government, therefore the "justice" being meted out there, is meted out within that context. Therefore I find issue with it, and I do not consider it representative of the justice system I am a proponent of.

So how would a functioning Islamic government deal with the crime and punishment?

Quote:

Can it be any simpler?

Yes... but that was not your point. Quite frankly, I see no reason to be sarcastic towards those who seek to understand... but then, maybe it is an Islamic thing to treat non Muslims that way... Is it?

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abu_rashid

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Re: does Abu want Shariah law for Australia?
Reply #419 - Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:54pm

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

OK... fair enough. So who has the authority to enact law then? What qualifications are required to enact the Koran?

The Khalifah (Ang. caliph).

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Islam is a faith I thought, in the same way that Judaism is a faith... I struggle to consider them as State Systems... although I can see how a State System can be formed by Islam for Islam.

Islam, according to its own founding documents includes a state system, it is not merely something that haphazardly arose. The modern western concept of a "faith" is a very recent advent. Judaism also was/is considered to contain a state system, although much of it is probably lost to us now, the Tanakh (Old Testament) does detail the basis of the Halaqah law system, upon which it was based.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Nonetheless, State Systems formed by Islam seem somewhat unstable...

Given that the first Islamic state lasted for about 1250 years, I'd say it was pretty stable.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

with the exception of Saudi Arabia of course.

Saudi Arabia is not a state based on the Islamic system. In fact it was a state created (based on the Western monarchy system) for the express purpose of helping to dismantle the last remaining Islamic state.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

So you don't think that Islam can operate on a community level then and that because of this, the judgement and punishment against the couple in question lacked Justice?

The Islamic state system obviously does not function in the absence of a state. Just as the Islamic belief system does not function in the absence of believers... Isn't all of this assumed by default?

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Or is it that you don't believe that Islam can operate on a community level where it is that the Nation is occupied and because of this, the judgement and punishment against the Muslim couple lacked Justice?

Firstly, if as stated, neither of the two were married, then it clearly has nothing to do with Islamic law, as Islam prescribes no such punishment for fornicators. Therefore it doesn't meet even the most rudimentary criteria to be associated with Islam.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

So how would a functioning Islamic government deal with the crime and punishment?

If they were fornicators, and it was proven, with 4 eyewitnesses, then they would both be flogged.

Sappho wrote on Sep 9^th, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Yes... but that was not your point. Quite frankly, I see no reason to be sarcastic towards those who seek to understand... but then, maybe it is an Islamic thing to treat non Muslims that way... Is it?

No, it's a human response to persistently irrelevant questioning.

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