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Verge

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #285 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:09pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 1:18pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 12:02pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 11:48am:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:41am:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:04am:

Ive never seen two homo's move the goal posts on a discussion as much as Bobby and Nail in this thread.

The funny thing is Quantum has presented excellent discussion points, yet all Bobby and Nail have done has argued even when he was agreeing with them.

Its a sad day when people like Quantum who have presented detailed and excellent points leave a thread because two butt buddies cant actually focus on a single topic at a time.

too true. But to have an actual valuable debate on a topic like EVs you need to at the very least acknowledge the facts as they are. I had a discussion with the GM Of Nissan Australia over the leaf and he acknoweldged that its greatest problem was limited range and cost. He wasnt ranting and raving and pretending. he was seeing what the strengths and weaknesses are. he isnt expecting the Leaf to take over fromt eh Commodore or repalce the Mazda 3. He is justifiably proud of what is a great car but he is no unaware of its very real limitations and the fact thatit will not be a mass seller.

why cant the butt-buddies do the same???

And you said that people will still continue to buy large gas guzzling cars in huge numbers but Commodore has slipped to 8th place and Ford is way off the list now whilst all small 4 cylinder cars such as Mazda 3 and Toyota Corolla are top sellers. Somehow fuel economy and the cost of running a car is a major factor in the purchase contrary to what you have always said !!

So much for another one of your rubbish predictions !!

Did you notice a lot of other vehicles coming on, notably 4wd utes.

Im noticing a lot of families are going to dual cab utes because of their versatility.

Im also seeing a lot of previous commodore owners going to captiva's, territory's, iX35's and Sorrentos for the additional space and versatility.

We just bought a nissan. The reliability is better and it was far cheaper.

Simply, commodores and falcons are over priced with a poor build quality, but with the unions in Oz running the show, you cant expect much else can you.

Verge,
Who is we?

My wife and I. Well, I should say I bought her one, considering I never even drove one till I went to pick it up.

Just took it on holidays, its handling on the great dividing range was superb.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 111459 Melbourne Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #286 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm That's very nice Verge. Still it's bad for FORD. No wonder they are going out of business.
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Verge

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #287 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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longweekend58

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #288 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:25pm

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

and I can find just as many experts saying the opposite. much of the decision making process for cars is 'horses for courses'. My FPV never goes off road as it is a disaster there, but on a racetrack...

What i find remarkable is how toenail claims to be supporting aussi manufacturing yet exalts over car manufacturer difficulties.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #289 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:36pm I've always been more of a GMC man over Ford. I just think they make better cars.
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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #290 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 1:38pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:41am:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:04am:

Ive never seen two homo's move the goal posts on a discussion as much as Bobby and Nail in this thread.

The funny thing is Quantum has presented excellent discussion points, yet all Bobby and Nail have done has argued even when he was agreeing with them.

Its a sad day when people like Quantum who have presented detailed and excellent points leave a thread because two butt buddies cant actually focus on a single topic at a time.

too true. But to have an actual valuable debate on a topic like EVs you need to at the very least acknowledge the facts as they are. I had a discussion with the GM Of Nissan Australia over the leaf and he acknoweldged that its greatest problem was limited range and cost. He wasnt ranting and raving and pretending. he was seeing what the strengths and weaknesses are. he isnt expecting the Leaf to take over fromt eh Commodore or repalce the Mazda 3. He is justifiably proud of what is a great car but he is no unaware of its very real limitations and the fact thatit will not be a mass seller.

why cant the butt-buddies do the same???

No but at the same time Nissan aren't making the equivalent of Ford Falcons and trying to flog them here are they ??

Also if you were a manufacturer of small petrol cars would you want to screw up your own market up with completely new technology that is much more reliable and cheaper to run ?

There is no reason why the Leaf should sell for 50K just as any new petrol car that Nissan spends billions developing never sells for 50K !! Their whole pricing structure is absurd but intentional Sad

Nissan just doesn't want people to abandon their existing investment in fossil fool cars !!

and if you ever understood the economics of MASS production you might know the answer. the Vot and Leaf are niche sellers at best.

Then how come the Toyota Camry Hybrid sells for 30 K ??

And what are you talking about anyway ? Those two cars are brand new models and are not mass produced that's why they are expensive so naturally demand is low. Get your chicken and egg in the right order will you.

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"All of the arab states have said we will have peace with Israel when there is a state of Palestine as a UN member state and properly constituted." - Jeffrey Sachs.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #291 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:48pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

and I can find just as many experts saying the opposite. much of the decision making process for cars is 'horses for courses'. My FPV never goes off road as it is a disaster there, but on a racetrack...

What i find remarkable is how toenail claims to be supporting aussi manufacturing yet exalts over car manufacturer difficulties.

For a start Ford and Holden are not aussie companies so their priorities are not with this country as evidenced by the fact that Ford US has an EV and hybrid program going on in the US. I find it quite absurd that Australian tax payers are forced to poor good money after bad into these foreign corporations when they should be supporting an ALL AUSTRALIAN car manufacturer that has its obligations HERE and not in the US !!

That's how Germany does it mate and the results speak for themselves !!

I mean for all of the tax payers billions that has been poored into Holden and Ford over the decades we don't even own the manufacturing equpment and plants. In four years time Ford will be packing up their tools and moving the whole lot to china. What a great investment that has been Sad

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"All of the arab states have said we will have peace with Israel when there is a state of Palestine as a UN member state and properly constituted." - Jeffrey Sachs.

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longweekend58

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #292 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:01pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

and I can find just as many experts saying the opposite. much of the decision making process for cars is 'horses for courses'. My FPV never goes off road as it is a disaster there, but on a racetrack...

What i find remarkable is how toenail claims to be supporting aussi manufacturing yet exalts over car manufacturer difficulties.

For a start Ford and Holden are not aussie companies so their priorities are not with this country as evidenced by the fact that Ford US has an EV and hybrid program going on in the US. I find it quite absurd that Australian tax payers are forced to poor good money after bad into these foreign corporations when they should be supporting an ALL AUSTRALIAN car manufacturer that has its obligations HERE and not in the US !!

That's how Germany does it mate and the results speak for themselves !!

I mean for all of the tax payers billions that has been poored into Holden and Ford over the decades we don't even own the manufacturing equpment and plants. In four years time Ford will be packing up their tools and moving the whole lot to china. What a great investment that has been Sad

you'd know all about bad investments. you are the dope who refused to buy a house when prices were less than half what they are now. feel like a fool? you should.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #293 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:02pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 1:59pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 1:38pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:41am:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 10:04am:

Ive never seen two homo's move the goal posts on a discussion as much as Bobby and Nail in this thread.

The funny thing is Quantum has presented excellent discussion points, yet all Bobby and Nail have done has argued even when he was agreeing with them.

Its a sad day when people like Quantum who have presented detailed and excellent points leave a thread because two butt buddies cant actually focus on a single topic at a time.

too true. But to have an actual valuable debate on a topic like EVs you need to at the very least acknowledge the facts as they are. I had a discussion with the GM Of Nissan Australia over the leaf and he acknoweldged that its greatest problem was limited range and cost. He wasnt ranting and raving and pretending. he was seeing what the strengths and weaknesses are. he isnt expecting the Leaf to take over fromt eh Commodore or repalce the Mazda 3. He is justifiably proud of what is a great car but he is no unaware of its very real limitations and the fact thatit will not be a mass seller.

why cant the butt-buddies do the same???

No but at the same time Nissan aren't making the equivalent of Ford Falcons and trying to flog them here are they ??

Also if you were a manufacturer of small petrol cars would you want to screw up your own market up with completely new technology that is much more reliable and cheaper to run ?

There is no reason why the Leaf should sell for 50K just as any new petrol car that Nissan spends billions developing never sells for 50K !! Their whole pricing structure is absurd but intentional Sad

Nissan just doesn't want people to abandon their existing investment in fossil fool cars !!

and if you ever understood the economics of MASS production you might know the answer. the Vot and Leaf are niche sellers at best.

Then how come the Toyota Camry Hybrid sells for 30 K ??

And what are you talking about anyway ? Those two cars are brand new models and are not mass produced that's why they are expensive so naturally demand is low. Get your chicken and egg in the right order will you.

hybrids are not EVs. they have a petrol engine and that is what mostly gets used. either talk about hybrids or about EVs. dont pretend they are the same thing.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Verge

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #294 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:13pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

and I can find just as many experts saying the opposite. much of the decision making process for cars is 'horses for courses'. My FPV never goes off road as it is a disaster there, but on a racetrack...

What i find remarkable is how toenail claims to be supporting aussi manufacturing yet exalts over car manufacturer difficulties.

I was putting equivelents against each other. The territory was never in the equation because of the poor build quality and front end suspension and brake issues. Fridays Herald Sun motor section is littered with them.

The captiva was in question, however is was slightly dearer and the servicing costs were double to the nissan.

I loved the iX35 but the hyundai dealer never bothered to ring me back. It too was slightly dearer, had equivelent servicing costs and excellent fuel economy. The Kia sportage was also a factor, but the feel of it wasnt quite as good.

So sorry, nail, but in horses for courses, the territory was never in the hunt.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #295 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:15pm My ex-colleague in Australia got a Captiva recently because he has upgraded from 2 children to soon-to-be 3 kids. He swears by it now. Has the space he needs, decent price and a decent sized engine? Servicing for it was high was it?? I am surprised at that, I thought Holden weren't that bad.
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Verge

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #296 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:20pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:15pm:

My ex-colleague in Australia got a Captiva recently because he has upgraded from 2 children to soon-to-be 3 kids.

He swears by it now.

Has the space he needs, decent price and a decent sized engine?
Servicing for it was high was it??
I am surprised at that, I thought Holden weren't that bad.

The oil the captiva uses is very expensive.

Its not that big of a deal, but the Nissan will cost $180 a service, the Captiva is closer to $500.

The nissan was slightly better on fuel, and I felt would have a bit better resale value.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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Sir lastnail

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #297 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 7:31pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:01pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:48pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 3:25pm:

Verge wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:25pm:

Bobby. wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 2:21pm:

That's very nice Verge.
Still it's bad for FORD.
No wonder they are going out of business.

The only ford in the equation was a Territory, but they have notorious front end suspension issues, their disc rotars warp and need machining at 30,000 kms, are insanely heavy on fuel and the servicing was more expensive. It was also $10k dearer, for what I believed was an inferior product. Our mechanic said dont even look at them, they are just garbage.

and I can find just as many experts saying the opposite. much of the decision making process for cars is 'horses for courses'. My FPV never goes off road as it is a disaster there, but on a racetrack...

What i find remarkable is how toenail claims to be supporting aussi manufacturing yet exalts over car manufacturer difficulties.

For a start Ford and Holden are not aussie companies so their priorities are not with this country as evidenced by the fact that Ford US has an EV and hybrid program going on in the US. I find it quite absurd that Australian tax payers are forced to poor good money after bad into these foreign corporations when they should be supporting an ALL AUSTRALIAN car manufacturer that has its obligations HERE and not in the US !!

That's how Germany does it mate and the results speak for themselves !!

I mean for all of the tax payers billions that has been poored into Holden and Ford over the decades we don't even own the manufacturing equpment and plants. In four years time Ford will be packing up their tools and moving the whole lot to china. What a great investment that has been Sad

you'd know all about bad investments. you are the dope who refused to buy a house when prices were less than half what they are now. feel like a fool? you should.

and where's your investment property Cheesy

LOL

Put your money where your mouth is next time idiot.

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"All of the arab states have said we will have peace with Israel when there is a state of Palestine as a UN member state and properly constituted." - Jeffrey Sachs.

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Sir lastnail Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 30331 Gender:	Re: FORD.R.I.P. Reply #298 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 7:56pm longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:02pm: hybrids are not EVs. they have a petrol engine and that is what mostly gets used. either talk about hybrids or about EVs. dont pretend they are the same thing. The GM Volt is a hybrid so why is it 60K and the Toyota Camry Hybrid only 30K ??
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Bobby.

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Re: FORD.R.I.P.
Reply #299 - Aug 1^st, 2012 at 8:02pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 7:56pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 1^st, 2012 at 4:02pm:

hybrids are not EVs. they have a petrol engine and that is what mostly gets used. either talk about hybrids or about EVs. dont pretend they are the same thing.

The GM Volt is a hybrid so why is it 60K and the Toyota Camry Hybrid only 30K ??

Hi Nail,
I am waiting for a mass produced reliable all electric vehicle for under $20,000.
I want a battery with a 10 year life cycle.
I'll hold on to my present car till I can buy one.
I am expecting the Chinese to make & sell such a vehicle first.
I certainly don't expect Ford or Holden to come up
with the goodies anytime soon.
To me the Aussie companies have already lost the race -
they are relics from the past & should be discarded.

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