Australian Politics Forum - Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters

muso

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #30 - May 15^th, 2012 at 2:23pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 2:20pm:

muso wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 2:19pm:

China is actually on track with renewable energy. They should easily achieve the 20% renewable energy mark by 2020. India is a different matter.

Chinese emissions are expected to rise for the next 10 years.
That's their own data.

That's true too.

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BigOl64

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #31 - May 15^th, 2012 at 2:40pm

JC Denton wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 2:11pm:

why do people always point a finger at only china and india in these discussions but never the united states

Because the US like Australia are the ones being blamed and expected to do all the changing where-as china and india are being given a free ride.

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FriYAY Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7395	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #32 - May 15^th, 2012 at 3:51pm Chinas main source of renewable energy is hydro. But how do you equate China’s renewable energy with projects like the 3 Gorges Dam? Sure they get hydro power, but at what cost? Considering the panty twisting by the Greens when it comes to dams, it sounds pretty hypocritical to me.
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freediver

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #33 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:29pm

BigOl64 wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 12:53pm:

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 12:38pm:

Per capita is the only 'real' way of measuring impact. Otherwise you are basically just measuring population and claiming that splitting a country in half makes a difference.

Actually exactly the opposite is true.

Population is the determining factor when it comes to pollution as it is the only way to determine 'real' output.

A country of 1 billion people producing 10 tonnes of garbage per person is a lot worse than a country of 20 million people producing 30 tonnes of garbage per person.

It's basic maths, not easy to fudge but the socialist will try anyway.

Sure, if you want to calculate the total global pollution, but that is not usually why people compare emissions rates between different countries.

Normally it is a to compare levels of waste, who is doing their fair share to reduce pollution, who is emitting more than their fair share etc.

Whatever you think the 'fair share' is, per capita is the only rational way to make the comparison.

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #34 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:33pm Per capita penalises small per capita developing countrys.
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it_is_the_light Gold Member Offline Christ Light Posts: 41434 The Pyramid of LIGHT Gender:	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #35 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:35pm humans do not pollute as much as corporations simple fact namaste
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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #36 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:36pm Avram Horowitz wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 7:33pm: Per capita penalises small per capita developing countrys. Lol, Avram wants to talk about externalities methinks! Bring on the dodgy accounting practises I say!!!
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freediver

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #37 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:45pm

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Actually the message is that Australians should feel bad, because on a "per capita basis" they pollute more than others, but overlooks the reality that due to our tiny population we don't produce frig all pollution.

This is not rational big ole. If we have a small population, then it is also easier to cut emissions on a per capita basis. Per capita is the only rational way to compare, otherwise you find put yourself in the absurd position that nominally splitting your country in two somehow makes things twice as easy or halves the obligations of the citizens in a global context. It doesn't.

If a country has 100 times our population and 100 times our emissions, then they should make 100 times the (total) effort to reduce emissions. Or, on a per capita basis, they are making the same emissions and should make the same effort. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept for you. The per capita basis is obviously the more rational way to compare otherwise you have to keep referring back to population to decide what is fair - both in terms of emissions and effort.

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While we are telling the massively populated countries like china and india that it is all Australia's fault

No-one is telling them that. But it is true that we are polluting more than our fair share, and only an idiot would expect China to ignore this, or be unaware of it just because we don't tell them.

Quote:

Per capita penalises small per capita developing countrys.

Avram your English is pretty poor here. What are you saying?

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #38 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:47pm it_is_the_light wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 7:35pm: humans do not pollute as much as corporations simple fact namaste While this may be a fact, where does attitude fit in to the equation?
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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #39 - May 15^th, 2012 at 7:51pm Free diver if you use per capita. Israel is penalised as we have only small population to spread out total emission. And we are only developing country too. Israel rejects per capita measures at UN.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53218 At my desk.	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #40 - May 15^th, 2012 at 8:23pm How is Israel penalised? In what way is a country's GHG emissions related to it's nationhood and not to the population? If you have a small population, then you only have a small total emission to spread out over that small population.
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Avram Horowitz

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #41 - May 15^th, 2012 at 8:29pm

freediver wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 8:23pm:

How is Israel penalised?

In what way is a country's GHG emissions related to it's nationhood and not to the population? If you have a small population, then you only have a small total emission to spread out over that small population.

No that is not correct. You still need to power country and cities.
It needs to look total. In Israel we have much higher emission because of cities and military on per capita but really in total we are nothing.

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freediver

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #42 - May 15^th, 2012 at 9:27pm

You don't need to power 'a country'. You need to get power to people. That power requirement depends on the number of people. If Israel split into two countries it would not need twice as much power.

Quote:

In Israel we have much higher emission because of cities

I have heard the exact opposite here - because we are 'spread out' we need more. Neither is a rational argument.

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Dirty Paki Khunt Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 103038	Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters Reply #43 - May 15^th, 2012 at 9:39pm Avram Horowitz wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 7:33pm: Per capita penises small per developing countrys. No, my friend, it is not true. Peoples in developing countries can have big size like West. Look at Africa.
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Mnemonic

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Re: Australians are world’s seventh biggest polluters
Reply #44 - May 16^th, 2012 at 3:19am

BigOl64 wrote on May 15^th, 2012 at 2:03pm:

You lose your sh1t pretty quickly don't you? Grin

Actually the message is that Australians should feel bad, because on a "per capita basis" they pollute more than others, but overlooks the reality that due to our tiny population we don't produce frig all pollution.

While we are telling the massively populated countries like china and india that it is all Australia's fault they will continue to do bugger all and that is the danger.

If we were to cut ALL our pollution by 100%, the total improvement to the planet would be stuff all.

We don't make that much of an impact, positive or negative.

If the health of this planet's environment is a global responsibility, then it does matter. If we all recognise it as important, then it's wrong to ask others to cut their pollution and not try and reduce our own. It's not a question of impact, but a question of ethics. For us to be allowed to pollute more per capita, it's like we're some kind of aristocratic upper class that is exempt from the responsibility that belongs to the entire human race. Considering that this is a developed country, we are in a sense a kind of aristocratic upper class and it is arrogant to expect the rest of the world to adhere to harsher standards that we would not apply to ourselves. We're just hiding behind the name "Commonwealth of Australia." Do borders really matter on this issue?

It's easy to pick on countries like China and India because of their huge population and total impact, but their contribution is already lower than our's per capita. If borders didn't matter you wouldn't be able to point fingers at them. If we erased all the borders from maps of the world, the concentration of emissions would be higher in our part of the world.

If people's contributions were tracked right down to the individual, then it would show that our lifestyles generated more emissions than those in developing countries. Individually, those in Australia contribute more to world pollution.

Per capita observations are fair.

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