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Should Islam have a reformation? (Read 6697 times)
bludger
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Should Islam have a reformation?
May 8th, 2012 at 12:40pm
 
Christianity was much like Islam in the early days, cruel, sadistic (the inquisition, stoning women to death).
Islam had a few extras, women with bags over their head, all body coverings, not the men of course.
Christianity at least jettisoned the bloodthirstier aspects, except for child abuse. So why can't Islamists? If they don't want to why not?
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #1 - May 8th, 2012 at 12:47pm
 
bludger wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 12:40pm:
Christianity was much like Islam in the early days, cruel, sadistic (the inquisition, stoning women to death).
Islam had a few extras, women with bags over their head, all body coverings, not the men of course.
Christianity at least jettisoned the bloodthirstier aspects, except for child abuse. So why can't Islamists? If they don't want to why not?


You see how hard the xtians fight against giving up that stuff. They like it so dont wanna give it up. all religion should be done away with.

SOB
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #2 - May 8th, 2012 at 6:22pm
 
bludger wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 12:40pm:
Christianity was much like Islam in the early days, cruel, sadistic (the inquisition, stoning women to death).
Islam had a few extras, women with bags over their head, all body coverings, not the men of course.
Christianity at least jettisoned the bloodthirstier aspects, except for child abuse. So why can't Islamists? If they don't want to why not?


I am surprised falah has not pointed out the jews might have invented stoning to death.

Allah claims Islam has been perfected in sura 5;3 so why would they want to reform something they think is perfect?
Would it be considered blasphemy to even suggest Islam needs reforming considering Allah said it has been perfected,they have the death penalty for blasphemy could this be an impediment to any reforms?
http://quran.com/5/3

Muslims cannot pick and choose which parts to follow, this is where Islam differs from christianity.
The Quran is very clear that you will be off to the hellfire for disbelieving in part of the scripture with sura 2;85 it is a package deal you have to believe in the whole package if you want those virgins and the everlasting erection in paradise.
http://quran.com/2/85

The death for blasphemy protects the Islamic meme from corruption.

The Ahmadi muslims did a few reforms and they are persecuted everywhere by mainstream Islam, In Pakistan where they originated they cannot call themselves muslims and can be jailed for outraging the religious beliefs of muslims  the first muslim to win a nobel prize in science was Abdus Salam who worked on Pakistan's nuclear program, Abdus was an Ahmadi muslim so they have removed the word "muslim" from his grave.
There were a few Ahmadi muslims killed by muslims last year in Indonesia.
The Ahmadi are considered as deviant heretics for the reforms they have done.

The persecution of Ahmadi muslims by mainstream Islam proves there is no desire for mainstream Islam to reform,I reckon porcine animals could become aerodynamic before Islam reforms.
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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.
 
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #3 - May 8th, 2012 at 6:35pm
 
The Christian church gave up control over the state relatively easily. They gave up authority over knowledge to science and institutions like universities relatively easily. Their long authority in these areas is more reflective of a vaccuum than an ideological mandate.

Despite claims that Islam and Judaism have a similar focus on religious law, Judaism has often been more progressive than Christianity and Jews have often lead political reform. They have female and gay clerics (forget the right term).

Islam won't give up control as easily, as Islam is a religion of control and power. Take that away, and you destroy the religion. In Islam, the punishment for proposing what you suggest is death by stoning. Sunni's and Shites bomb each other's mosques over this. Australian Sunnis like Abu and Falah will tell you that Shites are apostates. They will also tell you that the punishment for apostasy is death by stoning. They won't tell you these two things in the same thread of course. They have even outlined on this forum their plans for killing all the religious leaders in Iran for apostasy (the common people would apparently be given a chance to repent first).

Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath party was dominated by the Sunni minority. Inevitable tensions between Sunni's and Shites are splitting Baghdad into Sunni and Shite militia controlled zones and contributing to a lot of the violence.

The Sunni/Shite conflict also contribted to the Iran Iraq war. Iran is still eyeing off a takeover of Iraq once the Yanks pull out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_War

The war began when Iraq invaded Iran, launching a simultaneous invasion by air and land into Iranian territory on 22 September 1980 following a long history of border disputes, and fears of Shia Islam insurgency among Iraq's long-suppressed Shia majority influenced by the Iranian Revolution.

About half a million people died.

Anyway, nice idea, and good luck with it.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #4 - May 8th, 2012 at 6:38pm
 
Hmmm my post looks kinda like im talking about xtanity but im actually referring to muslims that dont want to give it up. Just clarifying.

However. Look how ppl like galileo were treated. Not such easy acceptance. Thats all i meant.

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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #5 - May 8th, 2012 at 6:49pm
 
Being able to 'name' the individual 'martyrs' for the cause of science kind of puts it into perspective. That was a major shift in intellectual authority that would have earlier been inconcievable. It would have to be one of the most peaceful shifts in power in history.

Islam appears to have made some contribrutions to applied science, particularly agriculture and warfar, but to basic research has contributed very little. Abu and Falah were recently boasting about Saudi research into the medicinal value of camel urine - because Muhammed apparently recommended that people drink it. I am not sure why, but Islam seems to stifle science.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #6 - May 8th, 2012 at 7:28pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 6:35pm:
The Christian church gave up control over the state relatively easily. They gave up authority over knowledge to science and institutions like universities relatively easily.

Martin Luther, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I (to name three) would disagree.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #7 - May 8th, 2012 at 7:57pm
 
If only three people in the history of the world disagree with me then I am off to a good start.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #8 - May 8th, 2012 at 8:25pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 7:57pm:
If only three people in the history of the world disagree with me then I am off to a good start.

If only it was three people... Europe was plunged into religious wars for hundreds of years as the church attempted to maintain control over political and cultural life in Europe. The Catholic Church was finally beaten into submission as late as the mid 19th century with the loss of the papal states, the last vestige of the church's temporal power in Europe.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #9 - May 8th, 2012 at 8:30pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:25pm:
Europe was plunged into religious wars for hundreds of years as the church attempted to maintain control over political and cultural life in Europe.


Who were these wars between? Were the attempts by the church to maintain power a sideshow to these wars, or is that what the wars were about?
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #10 - May 8th, 2012 at 8:39pm
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:30pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:25pm:
Europe was plunged into religious wars for hundreds of years as the church attempted to maintain control over political and cultural life in Europe.


Who were these wars between? Were the attempts by the church to maintain power a sideshow to these wars, or is that what the wars were about?

The wars against the German princes and the Vatican were about crushing Protestantism. The Holy wars against Islam were about Christian hegemony in Europe. The Pope sanctioned armies against the English and Dutch protestant kings and queens for 200 years. The Anglican and Presbyterian churches shared power with the monarch to unite against a common enemy - the pope. The Great Schism between eastern and western Christianity caused brutal wars for 200 years... And on we go.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #11 - May 8th, 2012 at 9:16pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 6:22pm:
Allah claims Islam has been perfected in sura 5;3 so why would they want to reform something they think is perfect?
Would it be considered blasphemy to even suggest Islam needs reforming considering Allah said it has been perfected,they have the death penalty for blasphemy could this be an impediment to any reforms?
http://quran.com/5/3

Muslims cannot pick and choose which parts to follow, this is where Islam differs from christianity.
The Quran is very clear that you will be off to the hellfire for disbelieving in part of the scripture with sura 2;85 it is a package deal you have to believe in the whole package if you want those virgins and the everlasting erection in paradise.
http://quran.com/2/85




Just so.
Mohamed painted them into an eternal, 7th century corner from which the only way out is to abandon Islam. There is neither inward nor outward room to maneuver for Mohammedans: it can't be limited to being a matter of private conscience nor can it be publicly decoupled from politics and law (state/mosque) and still be regarded as submission to the perfect, unalterable and final word of Allah.
The encounter with Islam from the Crusades onward has been a long and completely unsuccessful attempt to reform Islam which, like a monomaniac, is locked into reproducing everywhere and at all times the same unquestionable 7th century Arabian example set by Mohamed.

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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #12 - May 8th, 2012 at 10:46pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:39pm:
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:30pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:25pm:
Europe was plunged into religious wars for hundreds of years as the church attempted to maintain control over political and cultural life in Europe.


Who were these wars between? Were the attempts by the church to maintain power a sideshow to these wars, or is that what the wars were about?

The wars against the German princes and the Vatican were about crushing Protestantism. The Holy wars against Islam were about Christian hegemony in Europe. The Pope sanctioned armies against the English and Dutch protestant kings and queens for 200 years. The Anglican and Presbyterian churches shared power with the monarch to unite against a common enemy - the pope. The Great Schism between eastern and western Christianity caused brutal wars for 200 years... And on we go.


OK. Now imagine that the church leaders and the monarchs are the same people, that Christian doctrine forbade the catholic church from ever getting over it, demanded the pope be the unquestionable ruler of all of Christendom for eternity, spelled out a path of military conquest until this happened, and demanded that all the Anglicans and Presbyterians be stoned to death. That is the dilemma facing those who wish to reform Islam.
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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #13 - May 9th, 2012 at 4:40am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 10:46pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:39pm:
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:30pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 8th, 2012 at 8:25pm:
Europe was plunged into religious wars for hundreds of years as the church attempted to maintain control over political and cultural life in Europe.


Who were these wars between? Were the attempts by the church to maintain power a sideshow to these wars, or is that what the wars were about?

The wars against the German princes and the Vatican were about crushing Protestantism. The Holy wars against Islam were about Christian hegemony in Europe. The Pope sanctioned armies against the English and Dutch protestant kings and queens for 200 years. The Anglican and Presbyterian churches shared power with the monarch to unite against a common enemy - the pope. The Great Schism between eastern and western Christianity caused brutal wars for 200 years... And on we go.


OK. Now imagine that the church leaders and the monarchs are the same people, that Christian doctrine forbade the catholic church from ever getting over it, demanded the pope be the unquestionable ruler of all of Christendom for eternity, spelled out a path of military conquest until this happened, and demanded that all the Anglicans and Presbyterians be stoned to death. That is the dilemma facing those who wish to reform Islam.

As it was for all the popes from the Dark Ages until the 19th century while Catholic dogma condemned all who defied the pope - the vicar of Christ and god's representative on earth, with the power to bind and loose on earth and in heaven

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Re: Should Islam have a reformation?
Reply #14 - May 9th, 2012 at 8:09am
 
But they didn't actually have all that power did they? They shared it with the various monarchs. Filling a mandate vacuum is not the same thing as being unable to give it up.

I challenge you to find a non-Muslim equivalent of Abu and Falah who thinks the pope or any other religious leader should rule the world in a political sense.
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