Australian Politics Forum - stop water fluoridation

mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #30 - May 6^th, 2012 at 3:47pm

no it doesn't. But the point is that the report shows that urban U.S. children, with more exposure to fluoridated water and dental care, have just as many cavities as less fluoridation-exposed rural children, as per Table 2: Rural-Urban Comparisons of dental health and health care.

Please check also the video link (in previous post) and would like to know more about the thyroid issue.

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #31 - May 7^th, 2012 at 9:15am

mysstic wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

no it doesn't.

What????
Quote:

Efforts to improve access to adequately fluoridated public water for rural populations are indicated by these findings.

How much plainer could it be? In a medical context, you do know what "indicated" means? - as in "The symptoms indicate immediate surgery." (If it's a language comprehension problem, I didn't mean any offense)

Quote:

But the point is that the report shows that urban U.S. children, with more exposure to fluoridated water and dental care, have just as many cavities as less fluoridation-exposed rural children, as per Table 2: Rural-Urban Comparisons of dental health and health care.

Again, it's comparing apples with pears. It's a conclusion that's totally at odds with the conclusion of the report. You can't compare two different populations. It's like comparing Europe with Australia. For all we know, the rural population may have a healthier lifestyle. They probably have less access to fast foods for a start.

A population that eats more sugary foods will get more tooth decay regardless of whether or not the water is fluoridated. Nobody is claiming otherwise. Fluoridation is not 100% effective, but even if it made a 10% difference it would be cost effective. For the same conditions however, fluoridation has been proven to make a difference.

Nobody classifies fluoridation as mass medication, including Queensland. Populations in areas with higher natural levels of fluoride in the water have benefited from reduced dental decay compared to similar populations where fluoride levels are lower. Fluoridation is just increasing the concentration of a naturally occurring mineral to give those same advantages to everybody.

You didn't comment on the calcium fluorite goblets. Would you drink out of one?

By the way, the Queensland government are using fluoridation and public education against tooth decay. See the link below:

http://www.health.qld.gov.au/fluoride/

Also read what the Australian Dental Association says about fluoridation. Ok, it's time to come clean about how many practising Cairns dentists are not in favour of water fluoridation. Would I be right in saying zero?

http://www.ada.org.au/about/policies.aspx

Quote:

The use of fluorides in dentistry is one of the most important ways of preventing dental
caries and has the support of all peak public health and dental authorities. International
bodies such as the US-based Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), the World
Health Organisation (WHO) and the US Surgeon General actively promote water
fluoridation. The CDC placed water fluoridation in the top ten public health achievements
of the 20th Century. Similarly, scientific bodies in Australia, recognised public health
groups and professional organisations support water fluoridation. Community water
fluoridation continues to be the most cost-effective, equitable and safe means to provide
protection from tooth decay and has been successfully utilised in Australia for over 50
years. The effect of water fluoridation is predominantly topical, with some systemic
influence in children.

Tasmania

Quote:

In 1953 the Beaconsfield Council was the first in Australia to fluoridate its water supply, and Launceston and Hobart councils followed, though the community was divided on the issue. A Royal Commission finding in complete support of fluoridation saw the passing of the Fluoridation Act (1968) which meant Tasmania's communal water supplies were all fluoridated. The standard of teeth in the community improved enormously over time

(That's a University of Tasmania source.)

http://www.utas.edu.au/library/companion_to_tasmanian_history/D/Dentists.htm

OK, your links that purport to support your campaign obviously don't, and your campaign is rapidly coming apart at the seams when you dig deeper.

I haven't checked the American Dental Association website yet, but perhaps you could do that for us and let us know what their policy on fluoridation says.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2012 at 9:47am by muso »

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #32 - May 7^th, 2012 at 1:12pm

Ok, you made your point.
So I think I can very briefly summaries this discussion by:

Whether diseases or cavity rates increase or decrease with fluoridation, the issue is freedom. If someone feels the need for their family to drink fluoride, they are free to drink fluoride. When the government adds fluoride to drinking water, none of us are free not to have fluoride in our water.

Fluoride is readily available in shops. Those who support adding fluoride to public water supply are basically saying that this is the best way to support those families who's kids are abusing sugar, consume excessively sweets, soft drink such as coke, and are too lazy to brush their teeth and don't want to spend a few $ every week for toothpaste / mouthwash.

- [highlight]Those who support adding fluoride are also saying that they don't give a damn about our environment.
  Spilling that toxic waste into rivers, oceans etc are illegal, in fact are considered an act of terrorism. By adding it to public water supplies however is legal.

Most of European countries has banned fluoridation a long time ago. And their teeth are just as healthy as countries / states where fluoride is added to public water supplies. Even China where this toxic rubbish is coming from has banned it.[/highlight]

These people are also supporting in an indirect way obesity by suggesting that you can eat as much sugar, sweets, coke, etc. as you like, don't worry about it, your teeth won't get rotten because our dumbo gov has taken care of it.

"nobody classifies fluoridation as mass medication, including Queensland. "
that's wrong, pls check the position statement of the QLD gov, I think I posted the link somewhere, if not, I can send it again or u can google it up.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2012 at 1:27pm by mysstic »

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #33 - May 7^th, 2012 at 1:44pm Google Queensland Health - Common Fluoride Myths. I think you'll find that you have no valid points left.
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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #34 - May 7^th, 2012 at 2:02pm

mysstic wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 1:12pm:

Ok, you made your point.
So I think I can very briefly summaries this discussion by:

Whether diseases or cavity rates increase or decrease with fluoridation, the issue is freedom. If someone feels the need for their family to drink fluoride, they are free to drink fluoride. When the government adds fluoride to drinking water, none of us are free not to have fluoride in our water.

It's an issue of freedom. Freedom to be properly informed about lies perpetrated by advocacy groups that have no sound basis.

Quote:

Fluoride is readily available in shops. Those who support adding fluoride to public water supply are basically saying that this is the[highlight] best way to support those families who's kids are abusing sugar, consume excessively sweets, soft drink such as coke, and are too lazy to brush their teeth and don't want to spend a few $ every week for toothpaste / mouthwash.

Incorrect. Fluoridation is just one of a number of strategies used worldwide to reduce dental decay.

Quote:

Those who support adding fluoride are also saying that they don't give a damn about our environment.
Spilling that toxic waste into rivers, oceans etc are illegal, in fact are considered an act of terrorism. By adding it to public water supplies however is legal.

Fluorine at a level of 0.7 ppm is well within the ANZECC Guidelines for Water Quality for fresh and marine water quality. In fact even the USEPA does not regard that as being pollution. It's below natural levels in many regions of Australia and across the world.
Quote:

Most of European countries has banned fluoridation a long time ago. And their teeth are just as healthy as countries / states where fluoride is added to public water supplies. Even China where this toxic rubbish is coming from has banned it.[/highlight]

Quote:

Myth: Fluoride causes cancer
Fact:
Scientific studies from around the world have
failed to demonstrate a link between water
fluoridation and any type of cancer.
Fluoride is found naturally in most foods and water.
Reviews by peak health bodies around the world
show no connection between water fluoridation
and allergies, hypersensitivity or other
immunological effects.

Quote:

Myth: Water fluoridation is banned
in Europe

No country has banned water fluoridation.
In many European countries, the large number of
separate water sources used for drinking water
makes water fluoridation impractical. Many of these
countries use salt fluoridation as an alternative.

Quote:

These people are also supporting in an indirect way obesity by suggesting that you can eat as much sugar, sweets, coke, etc. as you like, don't worry about it, your teeth won't get rotten because our dumbo gov has taken care of it.

Strawman. I think we all know that the Queensland government has well established initiatives addressing obesity etc.

Quote:

"nobody classifies fluoridation as mass medication, including Queensland. "
that's wrong, pls check the position statement of the QLD gov, I think I posted the link somewhere, if not, I can send it again or u can google it up.

You are mistaken. Your links stated that the Queensland Government is against mass medication.

Quote:

Myth: Water fluoridation is mass
medication
Fact
Queensland Health does not consider the addition
of fluoride to drinking water to be ‘mass medication’,
but simply adjusting the level of a substance already
found naturally in the water to provide a substantial
public health benefit.

Source: Queensland Government- Common Fluoride Myths

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2012 at 2:09pm by muso »

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #35 - May 7^th, 2012 at 2:50pm

link for the QLD position statment
lgsa.org.au/resources/documents/qld_policy_281105.pdf

this statement from QLD Gov does consider the addition
of fluoride to drinking water to be ‘mass medication’
doesn't it? Undecided

By the way I appreciate the time and effort you put in this forum. I'm happy to see both sides.

To be honest I would't bother with this fluoride issue at all if I didn't have a thyroid condition. I got your point, but I am not convinced a 100% that there is no connection between the two. And until I do, I would prefer not to have fluoride in my tapwater.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2012 at 3:07pm by mysstic »

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #36 - May 7^th, 2012 at 3:11pm

mysstic wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

link for the QLD position statment
lgsa.org.au/resources/documents/qld_policy_281105.pdf

this statement from QLD Gov does consider the addition
of fluoride to drinking water to be ‘mass medication’
doesn't it? Undecided

That statement doesn't actually imply or deny that it's mass medication. It just says that they don't support mass medication. However the link that I provided states that Queensland Health specifically do not regard fluoridation as being mass medication, and they are the competent authority in defining whether or not fluoridation is mass medication, not Local Government.

mysstic wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

By the way I appreciate the time and effort you put in this forum. I'm happy to see both sides.

To be honest I would't bother with this fluoride issue at all if I didn't have a thyroid condition. I got your point, but I am not convinced a 100% that there is no connection between the two. And until I do, I would prefer not to have fluoride in my tapwater.

I appreciate your posts too. You wouldn't guess it, but I enjoy talking to people with different views. I hope you resolve your thyroid problem, and I hope I wasn't disrespectful in my replies.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2012 at 3:19pm by muso »

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mysstic New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17 Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #37 - May 10^th, 2012 at 2:27pm Sorry to come back to this topic, I just forgot to ask something, a little bit more personal. What's in it for you personally? Do you have young kids? I really would like to know besides the official version, what's in it for the average Australian. Just curious. Thanks! if you don't want to post it here, u can PM me.
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mantra

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #38 - May 10^th, 2012 at 3:28pm

The water in my area isn't fluoridated thank goodness, but when my first child was born - doctors and health care workers were fanatical about mothers dosing their babies with a fluoride tablet each day. They all stated it was essential for healthy teeth.

I couldn't forget the toxic smell & taste of fluoridated water so I was reluctant to give my child this chemical regardless of it being apparently harmless. I spoke to 3 pharmacists before I made a decision. All of them were fairly non-committal about the toxicity of fluoride, but when I asked if they would give their own children these tablets - I got the same answer - definitely no.

Nothing is better for a child's teeth than a healthy diet and being taught good cleaning techniques.

We hear all the time from the "experts" that certain chemicals in reasonable doses are harmless and this gives us an assurance that we are not being poisoned. However, we should use our logic as to what poisons we ingest.

Unfortunately pharmaceutical companies, chemists and scientists do tell lies - but then they're usually paid to promote a product.

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #39 - May 10^th, 2012 at 3:44pm

mysstic wrote on May 10^th, 2012 at 2:27pm:

Sorry to come back to this topic, I just forgot to ask something, a little bit more personal.
What's in it for you personally? Do you have young kids?
I really would like to know besides the official version, what's in it for the average Australian.
Just curious. Thanks!

if you don't want to post it here, u can PM me.

I don't have any interests in fluoridation whatsoever. I brush my teeth regularly, and my kids are grown up.

Whenever I see somebody post something that is misleading, my crazy sense of justice rears its head. That's why you'll see me going after UFO Cults, fluoridation opponents, vaccination opponents, climate denialists, Moon landing denialists, those who oppose business and our way of life, alternative medicine freaks - you name it - and I go after them like a blood hound.

Usually they all come out with brash assertions, but when you deleve a little bit into the detail and challenge their assertions, you find half truths, cherry picking and just plain false information.

The same goes for Coal Seam Gas opponents, GMO opponents, opponents of pesticides etc. All of these issues are emotive issues. They produce crazy emotional responses with very little if any discussion of factual information. Buried within their advocacy, there may be some real issues, but with all the lies that fly around, it's difficult to tell.

I'm not religious in any traditional sense, but I do believe that truth and knowledge are sacred. They should not be denatured with falsehoods for any reason. NOTHING justifies propagating false information. We need to give everything a fair hearing without distortions of the truth. Maybe some of these issues are real, but unless we can pull out that which is false, we are not in a position to determine the real level of risk.

Everything that we do has a certain level of risk attached to it. If we are to maintain or advance our civilisation, we need people to understand the real risks, because pseudo-issues like fluoridation draw our attention away from the real risks to society.

I don't think that has addressed your query, because I'm anything but the average Australian.

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #40 - May 10^th, 2012 at 3:55pm

Quote:

Myth: Water fluoridation is mass
medication
Fact
Queensland Health does not consider the addition
of fluoride to drinking water to be ‘mass medication’,
but simply adjusting the level of a substance already
found naturally in the water to provide a substantial
public health benefit.

So adding a substance to provide a health benefit ....couldn't that be called medication? It's not really important whether queensland health calls it medication or a humbidunyuderoleranom - a rose by any other name.

That's why I hate those "mythbusting" sites - they always word them in such a way as to be technically accurate, but not address the actual "myth".

Well I'm not really interested in fighting this fight, but I was under the impression the only proven benefit of fluoride was when applied topically, making water fluoridation worthless.

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In the fullness of time...

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mysstic New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17 Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #41 - May 10^th, 2012 at 5:00pm thank you for your answers. It has addressed my query. (I'm amending it to average and non average Australians )
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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #42 - May 10^th, 2012 at 5:20pm

... wrote on May 10^th, 2012 at 3:55pm:

Quote:

Myth: Water fluoridation is mass
medication
Fact
Queensland Health does not consider the addition
of fluoride to drinking water to be ‘mass medication’,
but simply adjusting the level of a substance already
found naturally in the water to provide a substantial
public health benefit.

So adding a substance to provide a health benefit ....couldn't that be called medication? It's not really important whether queensland health calls it medication or a humbidunyuderoleranom - a rose by any other name.

That's why I hate those "mythbusting" sites - they always word them in such a way as to be technically accurate, but not address the actual "myth".

Well I'm not really interested in fighting this fight, but I was under the impression the only proven benefit of fluoride was when applied topically, making water fluoridation worthless.

Fluoridation is something that we've tackled pretty well in Australia, especially when compared to the US. The benefits of fluoridation of the water supply have been shown time and time again. The NHMRC (National Health and Medical Research Council) is one of the most conservative bodies in Australia, and they come out strongly in favour of water fluoridation, citing typically 9 cavities for a 12 year old child pre fluoridation to one cavity post fluoridation. That's a pretty dramatic difference.

There are of course very pointed studies in the US by a few people, even in the medical profession who do studies on cavities or no cavities, lumping them all together with no indication of severity.

I don't entirely blame them. There is some justification for an anti fluoride movement in the US. Some local counties stuffed up completely with 100 times the recommended concentration, and there are significant cases of pretty ugly looking dental fluorosis over there.

In Australia, there are very low levels of natural fluorine in water compared to the US, and we seem to have got the balance right.

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #43 - May 11^th, 2012 at 2:20pm

"That's why you'll see me going after UFO Cults, fluoridation opponents, vaccination opponents, climate denialists, Moon landing denialists, those who oppose business and our way of life, alternative medicine freaks - you name it"

UFO cults I think they funny actually, a harmless hobby. Can be even very romantic watching the sky all night Wink

)).
But I'd be interested what your opinion about environment and wildlife in general, traditional hunting for ex.
Alternative meds: I'm for having a good balance between traditional and alt. I had recently a freaky encounter with thermal imaging clinic up here, you might be interested to read my blog about it:
thermalimaging.webs.com

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #44 - May 11^th, 2012 at 2:34pm

And one more question. If you'd bored with all this, just ignore it.
I'm interested in the business side of this. How can a product in general can be cost effective when you're wasting more than 90% of it.
Most of the water goes for shower, washing, irrigation.
If you have a business and want to market your product, if somebody would tell you to use lets say just half of it and the rest throw it in the garbage, you'd think that person is crazy, wouldn't you?
I am not arguing that there are benefits:
the Victorian community of around $1 billion, through avoided dental costs
But is this the best way to market a product? To waste 90% of it? I never studied marketing, but wouldn't it make more sense to only use a product for what it is tend to be for?

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