Australian Politics Forum - stop water fluoridation

Johnsmith

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #15 - May 5^th, 2012 at 3:44pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 10:42am:

Quote:

Rubbish, some vacines need topping up every 10 years.

Lol. Really. Not like every time you have a glass of water or anything else because the water supply is used in farming and soft drinks and beer and everything else.

Quote:

I know whooping cough and tooth decay are different, but the priciple is the same, the good of the community over the rights of an individual ..... that doesn't mean I agree one way or the other that flouride in water is good for the community, that I'll leave for the experts to debate.

Its this kind of abuse of a precedent that is prolly a good one by the powers that be that makes it ridiculous for them to have any power @ all. Forced mass medication is wrong imo. If that means we cant have whooping cough vaccinations then I guess thats what it means. Thanks to ppl abusing precedents if thats the right word.

Bit like those "anti-terrorism" laws brought in UK that they are using for copyright infringers now.

SOB

What abuse ?.. like I said before, the pros and con's of adding fluoride to water is for the experts to argue, I'm not an expert , this argument has been going back and forth for decades, I doubt your an expert in the field and for everything you can google against it, someone else can google for it... the good of the community must override the rights of the individual .... these vaccinations that you say are an abuse have saved millions upon millions of lives across the world .... should we stop them because a few object?

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #16 - May 5^th, 2012 at 4:24pm

In summary, fluoridation of water supplies has not been linked to any fatalities and up to a 60% reduction in dental caries.

- and dental caries has a significant affect on longevity.

If your campaign were to be successful worldwide, it would kill millions of people. Maybe you should stick to what you know.

http://fluorideinfo.org/

Quote:

We Support Fluoride in our Community Water based on these Values

• It Promotes health for all community members even the disadvantaged and most vulnerable.
• Taking a community-wide and long-term approach to solving problems.
• Using our local and state tax dollars equitably and in a cost effective manner.
• Preventing disease.
• Making informed choices based on available evidence and its relevance to our community’s situation.
• Recognizing that public health measures have been of great benefit to the community, but that they need to meet a high standard of safety and efficacy and should not constitute an insurmountable burden to those who object to them for personal reasons.
• Understanding that any policy involves a balance between risk, cost, and benefit.
• Understanding that there can be no absolute certainty in public health matters, but that there are reasonable standards of evidence that most of our community can accept to use in making policy decisions.

Also

Quote:

Multiple studies over the years done in several countries and the United States show that fluoridation can reduce tooth decay by 60% in baby teeth and up to 35% in adult teeth. When fluoride was discontinued, there were large increases in the incident of tooth decay, especially in children. (Reference: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5014a1.htm

What affects Life expectancy? Interesting reading:
http://www.aihw.gov.au/what-affects-life-expectancy/
Quote:

The Relationship of Oral Health to Overall Health and Longevity

Dental caries can kill people in the long run:

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Background
A number of oral health issues can negatively affect general health. All but one of the oral health problems listed below are the direct result of dental disease, in one form or another. These oral health issues can be divided into two distinct, but overlapping categories.

1. Dental/Oral disease. The most important of these in regard to their impact on general health are:
                     a. Periodontal (gum) disease;
                     b. Infected root canals;
                     c. Cavitations (infected extraction sites); and
                     d. Other diseases of the oral cavity, such as oral cancer.

2. Amalgam fillings, fluoride, and non-compatible dental materials

All of these dental/oral issues can affect your general health and, ultimately, longevity.

By the way, even hyperthyroidism (which is not caused by fluoridation) is rarely fatal if treated, and is reversible.

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« Last Edit: May 5^th, 2012 at 4:37pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #17 - May 5^th, 2012 at 4:39pm

Johnsmith wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 3:44pm:

What abuse ?.. like I said before, the pros and con's of adding fluoride to water is for the experts to argue, I'm not an expert , this argument has been going back and forth for decades, I doubt your an expert in the field and for everything you can google against it, someone else can google for it... the good of the community must override the rights of the individual .... these vaccinations that you say are an abuse have saved millions upon millions of lives across the world .... should we stop them because a few object?

Exactly. I'll tell you what's abuse, and that's misleading the public with half truths and false information. You've every right to be offended, especially given your personal experience.

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #18 - May 5^th, 2012 at 4:54pm

extremely low concentrations (around 1 part per million):
the concentration of fluoride is set under legislation at 0.7 milligrams per litre.
(source: General Manager Water & Waste Cairns Regional Council)

There is an overwhelming information about effect of fluoride on thyroid, it is not a claim by a single dentist but many many health organisations: just one example:
According to the American Thyroid Association, iodine deficiency is the most common cause of hypothyroidism
You can google it up yourself.

"It doesn't benefit absolutely everybody, especially if you're an adult whose teeth have fallen out, and it doesn't harm anyone either. It's perfectly good logic, but it's about as informative as saying that a person who has both feet amputated will have no benefit whatsoever from a pedicure. "

Fluoride has no effect on adult teeth, not because they've been fallen out, but because the fluoride only has effect on forming teeth. For more info google it up.

"If you can persuade the entire population to stop eating sweet foods and drinks, and to brush their teeth regularly, perhaps fluoride would not be required. "

Yes, well at least we agree on that. If you notice, there are more and more products on the market with "no added sugar", less fat, etc. Fortunately more and more people realise that eating healthy would benefit them in the long run. So yes, promoting healthy lifestyle, instead of medicating a small group, (fortunately it is not a large section ) would benefit us all.

"True, but even if you offer it free, a large number will not take it up. Hence the advantage of fluoridation."

Agree on that too. But it would be sort of like putting detox products in our water because some group of our population don't get it that alcohol is bad. Instead this group should be dealt with health professionals by promoting the healthy lifestyle, etc. OP course it is a lot more work than just dumping that chinese poo into the water. Because something is cheaper and easier, it doesn't justify it means.

Chlorine is certainly not very good either, but there is no comparison about the toxicity. google it up.

Every state has a different level of how much fluoride they putting in the water as per legislation.
Nth QLD has the least. I'm not sure about NSW, could be 1mg/L . This is not a small amount.
There is also fluoride in many many products, what do you think they spray the fruits with?

"Drink straight domestos and it will more than likely kill you."
Fluoride doesn't kill you, no one said that. But it is accumulating in your body over the years. Some people are more sensitive that others and some will develop symptoms. (like thyroid)

"What about the compulsory addition of vitamins to cereals? Is that mass medication too?

No, it's not mass medication. You are free to chose not to buy cereals, or to buy organic or something which doesn't have additional vitamins in it.
But when it come to water, people should not be forced to spend extra money on bottled water, filters, etc.

REGARDING MASS MEDICATION PLS READ THE Queensland Government Position Statement on Water Fluoridation
copy/paste this link into the browser:
lgsa.org.au/resources/documents/qld_policy_281105.pdf

You didn't mention anything about studies which prove fluoride to be inefficient.

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« Last Edit: May 5^th, 2012 at 5:44pm by mysstic »

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #19 - May 6^th, 2012 at 8:49am

mysstic wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 4:54pm:

extremely low concentrations (around 1 part per million):
the concentration of fluoride is set under legislation at 0.7 milligrams per litre.
(source: General Manager Water & Waste Cairns Regional Council)

There is an overwhelming information about effect of fluoride on thyroid, it is not a claim by a single dentist but many many health organisations: just one example:
According to the American Thyroid Association, iodine deficiency is the most common cause of hypothyroidism
You can google it up yourself.

I don't need to. I have qualifications in toxicology.

Quote:

"It doesn't benefit absolutely everybody, especially if you're an adult whose teeth have fallen out, and it doesn't harm anyone either. It's perfectly good logic, but it's about as informative as saying that a person who has both feet amputated will have no benefit whatsoever from a pedicure. "

Fluoride has no effect on adult teeth, not because they've been fallen out, but because the fluoride only has effect on forming teeth. For more info google it up.

Don't accept everything you can Google as being gospel.

Quote:

"If you can persuade the entire population to stop eating sweet foods and drinks, and to brush their teeth regularly, perhaps fluoride would not be required. "

Yes, well at least we agree on that. If you notice, there are more and more products on the market with "no added sugar", less fat, etc. Fortunately more and more people realise that eating healthy would benefit them in the long run. So yes, promoting healthy lifestyle, instead of medicating a small group, (fortunately it is not a large section ) would benefit us all.

"True, but even if you offer it free, a large number will not take it up. Hence the advantage of fluoridation."

Agree on that too. But it would be sort of like putting detox products in our water because some group of our population don't get it that alcohol is bad. Instead this group should be dealt with health professionals by promoting the healthy lifestyle, etc. OP course it is a lot more work than just dumping that chinese poo into the water. Because something is cheaper and easier, it doesn't justify it means.

It might be a lot more work and expense, but the bottom line is that it doesn't work. Public Education programs have very low effectiveness as risk reduction measures. The risk reduction factor is typically quoted around 0.995. (In other words, multiply the original risk by that factor to get the resultant risk.)

Quote:

Chlorine is certainly not very good either, but there is no comparison about the toxicity. google it up.

Again, I don't need to. I quoted the toxicities in my last post. The figure I quoted for Chlorine was expressed as sodium hypochlorite, which is a conservative figure. The LD50 is the lethal dose at which 50% of a given population will die. This may surprise you, but chlorine is far more toxic than sodium fluoride. Fluorine gas is a different matter of course, but that's like comparing sodium chloride (salt) to chlorine). It's chalk and cheese.

Quote:

Every state has a different level of how much fluoride they putting in the water as per legislation.
Nth QLD has the least. I'm not sure about NSW, could be 1mg/L . This is not a small amount.
There is also fluoride in many many products, what do you think they spray the fruits with?

"Drink straight domestos and it will more than likely kill you."
Fluoride doesn't kill you, no one said that. But it is accumulating in your body over the years. Some people are more sensitive that others and some will develop symptoms. (like thyroid)

Fluoride does not accumulate very much in the thyroid. Most of it passes through the kidneys and is extreted in the urine. A very small proportion accumulates as calcium fluoride mainly in the Pineal gland along with other inert minerals. It accumulates because it's immobile. In other words it's insoluble -it doesn't interact with anything, and it's safe. This picture shows a couple of examples of drinking vessels made of Fluorspar. Forget about 1ppm or 0.7ppm. These are practically 100 percent calcium fluoride. Why do you think people make drinking vessels out of it? Fluorspar is also called Blue John or Derbyshire Spar. It's has very beautiful banded violet blue colour, but if you leave it in sunlight for too long, it goes white. If you heat it gently, it glows violet in the dark. Really cool stuff.

Would you drink out of a Blue John goblet made of Calcium Fluoride? I did once.

Again, fuoridation does not cause hyperthyroidism. It's a myth.

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2012 at 9:34am by muso »

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #20 - May 6^th, 2012 at 9:57am

By the way, chlorine falls into Toxicity Category I and sodium fluoride falls into Category II, which is less toxic.

In terms of the Australian Poisons Schedule, Chlorine is a schedule 7 "Dangerous Poison", and Sodium Fluoride (and sodium silicofluoride) is a Schedule 6 "Poison".

Water supplies usually have a free chlorine of not less than 0.3ppm, but a typical total chlorine of up to 2ppm. As far as swimming pools are concerned, let's not go there.

The usual standard for fluoridation is 0.7ppm in Australia.

It's a question of social acceptance as much as anything. If you asked people if they would object to 2ppm of cyanide in their water, there would be a mass revolution, but chlorine is ok, yet chlorine is slightly more toxic than cyanide.

If you really want to look into it, chlorine is the main reason that we have pancreatic cancer in Western Countries. It's due to the waste products of chlorination. However, if you think we should go to ozone treament or no water treatment, I don't think you really want to go there because the risks are much higher.

In life, it doesn't matter what you do, there are risks. It's really a question of minimising those risks as much as possible. Compared to voluntary risks (like smoking), they are insignificant.

So vaccinate your kids, insist on fluoridated and chlorinated water, but please continue to question everything and anything. Don't take anything for gospel. If you find internet sites where people are talking like headless chooks about any issue, the chances are usually (not always) that the information is not very good.

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2012 at 10:15am by muso »

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mysstic

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #21 - May 6^th, 2012 at 1:41pm

u might have a degree in toxicology, but are you a thyroid expert as well? u don't need to answer that question.

But pls I asked u before, what about about studies which prove fluoride to be inefficient.
I can't post the full link, so copy/paste this:

news.yahoo.com/studies-fluoridation-fails-reduce-cavities-york-city-nationally-1

55705333.html

see the actual sutdy here:
wvrhrc.hsc.wvu.edu/docs/2011_fluoridation_policy_brief.pdf

New Studies: Fluoridation Fails to Reduce Cavities in New York City and Nationally by West Virginia Rural Health Research Center

There are many other similar studies, this is just a recent one.

Also pls explain how is it possible that Europeans do have as healthy teeth as ppl from fluoridated areas?
I come from EU, and I never had a single filling.

And since we all know that the cause of cavity is sugar why not treating the route cause of it? Because it cost $$$$?
So that's the solution? Putting a bandaid on it?

Again dental products (heaps) available on the market. Why would I give a damn if some so called disadvantaged group don't use toothpaste or never seen a toothbrush in their lives. That's their choice. If their teeth get rotten, it's their fault, and I couldn't care less.

And pls answer why would we pick mass medication for dental care only, why not lets say for kidney disease. Where would the list ends? Lots of vegetarians got B12 deficiency. So they could come forward and ask to medicate everybody with B12.

But the bottom line that regardless the toxicity level, it doesn't work. Tasmania has also a very bad record, despite being the first state to fluoridate water. (maybe not 1st, but they had it for long)

Before u become a professional endocrinologist u might want to read a report from National Research Council about Fluoride Damages the Thyroid, study reveals
louisaenright.wordpress.com/tag/national-research-councils-fluoridation-2006-rep
ort/

nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11571&page=266

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2012 at 2:17pm by mysstic »

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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #22 - May 6^th, 2012 at 2:14pm

mysstic wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

Also pls explain how is it possible that Europeans do have as healthy teeth as ppl from fluoridated areas?
I come from EU, and I never had a single filling.

If you don't understand the reason for that, I'm wasting my time.

Let's say the claim is made that fluoridation will reduce tooth decay by 60%, then there is still the remaining 40% for whom it doesn't reduce tooth decay. You might be one of that 40% for all I know.

Some parts of Europe do fluoridate salt, and of course, fluoride toothpaste is widely available.
Fluoride is not the only agent that can reduce tooth decay. It depends on many other factors.
Maybe brushing your teeth is more widely practiced in the parts of Europe where that applied.

You can't compare apples and pears.

I'll reply to your other points when I have time.

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Johnsmith

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #23 - May 6^th, 2012 at 2:41pm

Also pls explain how is it possible that Europeans do have as healthy teeth as ppl from fluoridated areas?
I come from EU, and I never had a single filling.

I remember when my wife first come over from Europe, she commented several times on how foods in Australia were so full of sugar, compared to what she was used to , she still complains about our mayonnaise.. everything here is much sweeter ... maybe that has something to do with it

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mysstic New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17 Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #24 - May 6^th, 2012 at 2:44pm Yes, most definitely. Icing on bakery products for ex. Europeans wound't even touch it. Not only because is so unhealthy but also taste disgusting (for EU)
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #25 - May 6^th, 2012 at 2:54pm Yes, Australia has the second highest per capita consumption of sugar in the world at 47kg/person/year. (but it's falling) The US consumes 67kg/ person per year. http://www.capitalalternatives.com.au/china-may-be-worlds-largest-sugar-importer...
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #26 - May 6^th, 2012 at 2:57pm mysstic wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:44pm: Yes, most definitely. Icing on bakery products for ex. Europeans wound't even touch it. Not only because is so unhealthy but also taste disgusting (for EU) Which part of Europe are you from? I know it's true for Italy and France for example.
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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #27 - May 6^th, 2012 at 3:08pm

mysstic wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

Again dental products (heaps) available on the market. Why would I give a damn if some so called disadvantaged group don't use toothpaste or never seen a toothbrush in their lives. That's their choice. If their teeth get rotten, it's their fault, and I couldn't care less.

And pls answer why would we pick mass medication for dental care only, why not lets say for kidney disease. Where would the list ends? Lots of vegetarians got B12 deficiency. So they could come forward and ask to medicate everybody with B12.

Well the main reason is cost to the community. Victoria alone saved over one billion dollars since they introduced fluoridation.

Most vegetarians (and even vegans) get enough Vit B12 in their diet. (including myself)
It's quite cheap to correct, and we don't tend to suffer from high cholesterol like many of the rest of the population either. The cost benefit analysis for fluoridation shows an obvious advantage.

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2012 at 3:15pm by muso »

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mysstic New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17 Gender:	Re: stop water fluoridation Reply #28 - May 6^th, 2012 at 3:18pm here is a good video explaining the deception of fluoride copy/paste link: tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=42652E035A1B1BAAAE1F340B54694975
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muso

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Re: stop water fluoridation
Reply #29 - May 6^th, 2012 at 3:23pm

mysstic wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 1:41pm:

see the actual sutdy here:
wvrhrc.hsc.wvu.edu/docs/2011_fluoridation_policy_brief.pdf

OK, I read it (have you?). It seems to support Fluoridation:

Quote:

Conclusions: Rural populations have significantly poorer access to adequately fluoridated public drinking water compared to urban populations. Population access to fluoridated water is lowest in the most rural areas of the country. Efforts to improve access to adequately fluoridated public water for rural populations are indicated by these findings. Where rural families rely on unfluoridated well water, education programs to encourage safe levels of topical fluoride use may be valuable. Policies to improve access to dental care in rural areas are also indicated by the results. Appropriate policy responses may include efforts to improve dental health insurance coverage, and to improve the supply of dentists practicing in rural areas.

This may be accomplished through loan repayment programs or other strategies to encourage
dentists to practice in rural areas, or improving reimbursement levels for dentists to treat
children on public assistance programs such as Medicaid. Other policy initiatives may include
programs to encourage pediatricians and family physicians at wellness visits to refer infants to a
dental home when the first tooth emerges. Finally, efforts may be undertaken to expand the
Women, Infants and Children program to include a dental education component on brushing
children’s teeth, and strengthening the Head Start program to allow caregivers to brush
children’s teeth.

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