Australian Politics Forum - Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.

MOTR

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #15 - May 1^st, 2012 at 6:46am

I'd imagine that studies of life-cycle greenhouse emissions of CSG (including extraction, pipeline transport, liquefaction, regasification, transportation and generation) would be quite problematic. I haven't been able to find one online. If you had to guess would life cycle emmissions produced be closer to 70% or 100% of the emissions produced by black coal.

Quote:

COAL seam gas, widely touted as a greener fuel than coal, could have just as deep a carbon footprint unless world-class standards are used when extracting the gas from the ground, an expert report has found.

A study into the life-cycle greenhouse emissions of Australia's energy sources by consultancy WorleyParsons found conventional gas from large offshore wells typically produced 38 per cent less greenhouse emissions than black coal, largely because it burnt more cleanly.

But the equation could shift dramatically for the fledgling coal seam gas industry - the subject of a fierce political battle in NSW and Queensland - if meticulous standards were not followed when the gas was extracted from the ground.

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/gas-could-be-just-as-dirty-as-coa...

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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muso

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #16 - May 1^st, 2012 at 8:48am

That analysis is flawed. It doesn't take into account methane emissions that would occur if the CSG were not to be extracted.

It's just a tad more complicated than that study reveals.

For a start, it all stems from the fact that the 100 year Global Warming Potential of methane is about 25 times that of carbon dioxide.

In areas where coal mining takes place, coal seam gas leaks to the atmosphere as a result of the extraction process. However if the CSG is extracted first, it reduces the pressure and reduces the emission rates to atmosphere.

On that basis, you could argue that the extraction and use of CSG actually reduces the carbon footprint associated with open cut mines, even if they are not currently in production. Any open gash in the countryside is continuously emitting methane, and some of these gashes are 100km long or longer (see the picture). The emissions associated with coal production are grossly underestimated because these are diffuse fugitive emission.

If we ceased CSG production from these areas, the methane emissions to atmosphere would increase. Any location where there is an intention to mine coal, shares the same long term benefit from CSG production.

I read about that study when it first came out, and it doesn't look at the whole picture. You would have to question the motivation behind it. (Who funded it?) It begs the question - where is the life-cycle analysis for coal mining? (dangerous thoughts - just as well that I'm anonymous)

There are various reasons for issuing a report like this. I deal with environmental consulting engineers all the time. You have to watch them like a hawk. Generally, reports like this are commissioned on behalf of industry for submission to the regulator. They tend to sneak in little recommendations that ensure that they will be kept in employment by way of future studies. You should see them whinge when you refuse to release payment of $500k studies until they tidy up the reports.

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« Last Edit: May 1^st, 2012 at 9:11am by muso »

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muso

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #17 - May 1^st, 2012 at 7:41pm

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 23^rd, 2012 at 11:17am:

Coal Seam Gas
http://www.wilderness.org.au/campaigns/coal-seam-gas

The coal seam gas rush
http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/coal-seam-gas-by-the-numbers/

How is coal seam gas mined?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/specials/coal-seam-gas-by-the-numbers/drilling/

Basically just too much risk for the environment and people inhabiting it.

I knew it. The ABC website is riddled with factual errors Grin

Quote:

An ABC investigation into the broadcaster's Coal Seam Gas: By the Numbers website has found "significant" inaccuracies, leading to an official apology. The ABC Audience and Consumer Affairs report was released late last Thursday (just before the Easter long weekend), almost four months after APPEA lodged its first complaint about the site's inaccuracies and well outside the ABC's 30-day response time target. The investigation found seven material inaccuracies, six contravening ABC editorial standards. However, many inaccuracies still remain on the website.

http://www.appea.com.au/images/stories/media/120410_abc%20admits%20website%20err...

I wonder if it will get into the mainstream media?
http://www.abc.net.au/contact/upheld/s3492127.htm

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MOTR

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #18 - May 2^nd, 2012 at 8:41pm

muso wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 8:48am:

That analysis is flawed. It doesn't take into account methane emissions that would occur if the CSG were not to be extracted.

It's just a tad more complicated than that study reveals.

For a start, it all stems from the fact that the 100 year Global Warming Potential of methane is about 25 times that of carbon dioxide.

In areas where coal mining takes place, coal seam gas leaks to the atmosphere as a result of the extraction process. However if the CSG is extracted first, it reduces the pressure and reduces the emission rates to atmosphere.

On that basis, you could argue that the extraction and use of CSG actually reduces the carbon footprint associated with open cut mines, even if they are not currently in production. Any open gash in the countryside is continuously emitting methane, and some of these gashes are 100km long or longer (see the picture). The emissions associated with coal production are grossly underestimated because these are diffuse fugitive emission.

If we ceased CSG production from these areas, the methane emissions to atmosphere would increase. Any location where there is an intention to mine coal, shares the same long term benefit from CSG production.

I read about that study when it first came out, and it doesn't look at the whole picture. You would have to question the motivation behind it. (Who funded it?) It begs the question - where is the life-cycle analysis for coal mining? (dangerous thoughts - just as well that I'm anonymous)

There are various reasons for issuing a report like this. I deal with environmental consulting engineers all the time. You have to watch them like a hawk. Generally, reports like this are commissioned on behalf of industry for submission to the regulator. They tend to sneak in little recommendations that ensure that they will be kept in employment by way of future studies. You should see them whinge when you refuse to release payment of $500k studies until they tidy up the reports.

Thanks for the reply, Muso. I'm still finding it difficult to accept that CSG is a viable transition fuel as we move to renewable energies. If we are looking at CSG in lieu of open cut coal mining, then potential emission reductions from future open cut mining should not be considered as they will never be realised. I do accept your point that these potentials should be considered if the land is likely to be mined more extensively in the future.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #19 - May 8^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

Stuff the consequences, we'll do it anyway lol

It's quite a comprehensive article so read more if you wish.
..................................................................

Fracking: A dehydrated UK, watered only by capitalism

London, United Kingdom - Fracking: environmental and human destruction at its very worst. Groundwater contamination, billions of gallons of fresh water squandered, small earthquakes, toxic air emissions, reports of radiation, and not even tap water going up in flames are enough to halt the decimation of our precious countryside, in an attempt to extract copious volumes of natural gas from the unearthed, sedimentary shale rocks below.

Desperate destroyers, shielded within a self-regulating industry, think of nothing but profit as they hydraulically fracture rocks with a lethal cocktail of chemicals, sand and billions and billions of gallons of fresh water. Fracking is the latest devastating testament to how destructive capitalism has suffocated and engulfed our precious planet.

In May 2010, after entering office, Prime Minister David Cameron stood up and declared: "I want this to be the greenest government ever." That spurious statement has not been honoured. This British government has chosen to do nothing except ignore all the toxic consequences associated with the dirtiest and most invasive extraction method of natural gas.

Only after the first attempt at fracking in the UK resulted in two minor earthquakes, did the department of energy and climate change decide to commission a panel of (government led) experts to investigate hydraulic fracturing further. Published in April, the first official British report [PDF] advises ministers to allow fracking to be extended across Britain. Quite how this decision was reached is staggering, as the report is full of confusing contradictions that only highlights the risks and consequences. Key conclusions state:

The minor earthquakes of magnitudes 2.3 and 1.5, in Blackpool, Lancashire, in April 2011 were caused by test fracks at the first British test plant.
Further fracking will result in the same outcomes: "The similarity of the seismic events suggests this is a highly repeatable source."
Concerns over the integrity of the wells and warnings of potential future contamination and leakage.
A "traffic light" system should be adopted, with quakes measuring above 0.5 triggered by a red light and the process immediately stopped.

Where exactly are the concerns and warnings over the sources, provisions and volumes of precious fresh water that will be wasted and contaminated? Why is this not a fundamental concern for the British government, which urgently needs to be held to account over their inept failure to follow through on their promise "to be the greenest government ever".

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/05/2012514505415433.html?utm_conte...

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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muso

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #20 - May 8^th, 2012 at 3:07pm

Compared to blasting at Open cut mines, a 2.3 magnitude Earthquake is not worthy of note.

The description for that category is :

Quote:

1:Generally not felt by people unless in favorable conditions.
2 Felt only by a few people at best, especially on the upper floors of buildings. Delicately suspended objects may swing.

Quote:

Desperate destroyers, shielded within a self-regulating industry, think of nothing but profit as they hydraulically fracture rocks with a lethal cocktail of chemicals, sand and billions and billions of gallons of fresh water. Fracking is the latest devastating testament to how destructive capitalism has suffocated and engulfed our precious planet.

That kind of loaded language in an article shouts "BS" very loudly, and I immediately think "paid editorial". It's not very good journalism.

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« Last Edit: May 8^th, 2012 at 3:17pm by muso »

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Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map.
Reply #21 - May 31^st, 2012 at 9:52am

Why is the river bubbling?
......................................

Coal seam gas leak causes Condamine river to bubble?

This video released on Tuesday 29 May shows the Condamine river bubbling and claims this is due to nearby coal seam gas operations. Commentary from the video clip says that gas is measured as present at four different locations where bubbling is occurring along a 5 kilometre stretch of the river.

Lock the Gate investigators have discovered coal seam gas bubbling to the surface along a 5 kilometre stretch of the Condamine River near Chinchilla.

The gas is bubbling to the surface in at least four spots along this stretch of the river and, according to a local landowner, the coal Seam gas company operating in the area – Origin – has identified it as coal seam gas and is testing to see which of its seams it comes from.

Lock the Gate Alliance president, Drew Hutton, will be calling a media conference today at 10.30 a.m. in front of the Parliamentary Annexe to describe these findings and call for certain actions to be taken.

Mr Hutton, a former resident of Chinchilla, said that, while it was possible for methane to naturally bubble to the surface of waterways, none of the local farmers had ever heard of it happening in the Condamine River.

Also, the fact that it is occurring along several kilometres of the river would suggest it is not an isolated occurrence but a major leak and has found its way to the surface along migration pathways opened up by the de-watering of aquifers or fracking.

“I don’t think there is any doubt this extensive leak is linked to the coal seam gas drilling, and probably fracking, that is occurring in nearby wells,” Mr Hutton said.

“This is just one cut in the death-by-a-thousand cuts to the environment that will occur when we have the tens of thousands of wells across rural Queensland.”

Mr Hutton said the incident had been reported to the Mines and Environment departments by a local landowner but these departments reportedly did not want to know about it.

http://www.kateausburn.com/2012/05/29/coal-seam-gas-leak-causes-condamine-river-...

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Aussie Coal Seam Gas interactive map. Reply #22 - Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 8:14pm Ex Dame Pansi wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 9:52am: “I don’t think there is any doubt this extensive leak is linked to the coal seam gas drilling, and probably fracking, that is occurring in nearby wells,” Mr Hutton said. What an idiot. This is natural methane release. It happens every year.
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