Australian Politics Forum - What now for the Greens?

matty

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #90 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:20pm

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

No, actually it's not.

It's certainly not impossible.

Remember when the NSW state govt (Carr) wanted to abolish some
motorway tolls a few years ago?

He found that the previous govt had signed a contract with ironclad
guarantees of MASSIVE compensation to the (private) contractor.

He wouldn't spend taxpayers' money to do that, so the tolls remained.

Would YOU be naive enough to believe that the Red Dalek wouldn't
set a similar trap for the Toe-nail?

No, don't bother, we know the answer....

I wouldn't put anything past Gillard, but Tony Abbott will move heaven and earth to repeal it, Kat. I thought that you, yourself were vehemently against it.

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BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

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gizmo_2655

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #91 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Kat

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #92 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:20pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

[quote author=24283D3D30490 link=1334542375/58#58 date=1334554680]Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

No, actually it's not.

It's certainly not impossible.

Remember when the NSW state govt (Carr) wanted to abolish some
motorway tolls a few years ago?

He found that the previous govt had signed a contract with ironclad
guarantees of MASSIVE compensation to the (private) contractor.

He wouldn't spend taxpayers' money to do that, so the tolls remained.

Would YOU be naive enough to believe that the Red Dalek wouldn't
set a similar trap for the Toe-nail?

No, don't bother, we know the answer....

I wouldn't put anything past Gillard, but Tony Abbott will move heaven and earth to repeal it, Kat. I thought that you, yourself were vehemently against it.[/quote]

I am, but there isn't much I'd put past the Red Dalek.

It wouldn't surprise me what she'd do to make it hard or impossible to repeal.

And it could be done.....

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Dsmithy70

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #93 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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longweekend58

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Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #94 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:40pm

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

No, actually it's not.

It's certainly not impossible.

Remember when the NSW state govt (Carr) wanted to abolish some
motorway tolls a few years ago?

He found that the previous govt had signed a contract with ironclad
guarantees of MASSIVE compensation to the (private) contractor.

He wouldn't spend taxpayers' money to do that, so the tolls remained.

Would YOU be naive enough to believe that the Red Dalek wouldn't
set a similar trap for the Toe-nail?

No, don't bother, we know the answer....

Here is your clue... federal legislation is open to EVERYONE to peruse. the tolls you refer to were comercial-in-confidence contracts which were NOT open to disclosure.

whats with this 'toe-nail' term? it doesnt make any sense whatsoever and makes you sound rather silly.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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gizmo_2655

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Posts: 16010
South West NSW
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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #95 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

No, we do live in the natural world...but, being a human, I feel humans are more important than maggots.....i.e we shouldn't kill off humans, just to feed maggots...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Kat Gold Member Offline Socialism IS the answer. Posts: 17709 Everywhere and no-where Gender:	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #96 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm Um.....Toe-nail is a play on Tony. And stating a fact, OR a possibility, is never silly. Of course, those who disagree may see it that way, and that's their prerogative. Doesn't alter the fact.
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Dsmithy70

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ire futuis vobismetipsis

Posts: 13147
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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #97 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:53pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

No, we do live in the natural world...but, being a human, I feel humans are more important than maggots.....i.e we shouldn't kill off humans, just to feed maggots...

And what green policy is against the human race?

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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gizmo_2655

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Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #98 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 8:53pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:53pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

No, we do live in the natural world...but, being a human, I feel humans are more important than maggots.....i.e we shouldn't kill off humans, just to feed maggots...

And what green policy is against the human race?

Most of them...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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MOTR

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Posts: 6646

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #99 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 8:58pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:27pm:

Why do you think it is inevitable? almost no one else is doing it and those that have found it a failure and in difficult economic times it is hardly the kind of policy that will find favour. And, like it or not, the public is growing increasingly scpetical of climate hysteria. there is already very little support for the carbon tax and little sign of that changing. Quit simply, the mood has shifted and nothing is changing that.

DDs are very unpopular with the parties that force them. If labor refuses to repeal the CT in response to a landslide liberal win and mandate they run the risk of savage attacks by the people whod ouwld claim(rightly) that labor is trying to thwart their wishes. Abbott knows the mere threat of a DD will probably get the CT repealed. But if not, an actual DD will certainly do it plus inflict further damage on the ALP.

You're whole argument is based on the false premise that AGW is not real. If you take the time and investigate the science you'll find that global warming is real, we're responsible and the consequences are dire. The science is settled, there is just an illusion of a debate essentially played out within the political sphere. Last year in Durban, developed and developing countries agreed to adopt a universal legal agreement on climate change that will come into force by 2020. It may be happening slowly but there is no doubt we are heading towards a less carbon intensive global economy. Countries who deny this reality are going to be left technologically disadvantaged in this new economic paradigm. The most efficient and least intrusive way to reduce dependence on carbon intensive is through putting a price on carbon. I can guarantee that this is not just going to happen in Australia, but right around the world. It would be an absolute folly to stall our transition to renewable energies at this point.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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perceptions_now

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #100 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 9:01pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

No, we do live in the natural world...but, being a human, I feel humans are more important than maggots.....i.e we shouldn't kill off humans, just to feed maggots...

Well, history & current events would seems to suggest, we will!

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Dsmithy70

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Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #101 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 10:00pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 8:53pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:53pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:33pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:21pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I don't know about Longy, but my reasons are, the Greens take environmentalism much too far...
Supporting animal rights, trees (plant life generally), anti-nuclear WEAPONS etc are all well and good.....BUT considering any of these things more important than your own species, is taking it to a ridiculous level..

I'm in favour of caring for plants and animals, but only up to the point where humanity doesn't suffer detrimental effects...

From that post I can only assume you think the human race lives outside the natural world.
If you think we can live on our own check out what the predictions are if the humble honey bee disappears.
We are as much a part of the natural environment as the lowiest maggot.
Everything has a place.
Unfortunately the coal mine overcomes any natural element no matter how important us or any other species.

No, we do live in the natural world...but, being a human, I feel humans are more important than maggots.....i.e we shouldn't kill off humans, just to feed maggots...

And what green policy is against the human race?

Most of them...

Against the human race or against some humans making squillions?

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento

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PZ547 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9282 Gender:	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #102 - Apr 17^th, 2012 at 6:11am Did he jump ? Was he pushed ? Whole thing's persuading me there's more than a pinch of truth in Palmer's claims
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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #103 - Apr 17^th, 2012 at 6:15am PZ547 wrote on Apr 17^th, 2012 at 6:11am: Did he jump ? Was he pushed ? Whole thing's persuading me there's more than a pinch of truth in Palmer's claims Which claims?
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Maqqa

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14% - that low?!

Posts: 16000

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #104 - Apr 17^th, 2012 at 12:34pm

great write-up longie

for what it's worthy - Bob Brown has been the mascot of the Greens for a very long time and that beacon is now replaced with barely a flicker in the form of Milne. She came out swinging this week taking air swings at both parties - she missed. Rhiannon is no better.

He's represented the one constant in this rabble they call a political party.

you correctly pointed out that both Milne and Rhiannon are fighting over the leadership - but what is the prize? I think Milne taking the leadership is a blessing in disguise for Rhiannon. When the Greens are decimated at the next election - chances are Bandt will no longer be in parliament. Neither Labor or Liberal will make that mistake again by referencing him. Not sure if her senate seat is up for re-election or not but if Milne survive she will have to make some interesting decisions then with Rhiannon breathing down her neck.

Where does this leave the Greens?

This carbon tax is to the Greens as what the GST is to the Democrats. The beginning of the end. The end of their relevance and influence.

The different between the GST and the Carbon Tax is - the latter will be repealed.

So it was all for nothing then?

Let Milne and Rhiannon fight it out. Let them destroy each other and along with it the hard work that Bob Brown has done to get the Greens to where it is at the 2010 election.

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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