Australian Politics Forum - What now for the Greens?

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #75 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #76 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:27pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

I'm not saying he absolutely won't repeal it, he might be unlucky enough to gain control of the senate and then feel politically compelled to repeal the tax. What I'm saying is that sooner or later this country will have a price on carbon and all Abbott is doing is stalling our shift to the new economic paradigm. If we are lucky he might bring forward the ETS in lieu of the tax. Thereby maintaining some semblance of economic responsibility while technically maintaining his commitment to the Australian Public.

Why do you think it is inevitable? almost no one else is doing it and those that have found it a failure and in difficult economic times it is hardly the kind of policy that will find favour. And, like it or not, the public is growing increasingly scpetical of climate hysteria. there is already very little support for the carbon tax and little sign of that changing. Quit simply, the mood has shifted and nothing is changing that.

DDs are very unpopular with the parties that force them. If labor refuses to repeal the CT in response to a landslide liberal win and mandate they run the risk of savage attacks by the people whod ouwld claim(rightly) that labor is trying to thwart their wishes. Abbott knows the mere threat of a DD will probably get the CT repealed. But if not, an actual DD will certainly do it plus inflict further damage on the ALP.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #77 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:29pm

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

yes, you will be wrong. but why would you coimplain? you arent voting for him anyhow.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Life_goes_on Gold Member Offline Posts: 4772 400kms south of Yobsville, Qld Gender:	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #78 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy? With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.
Back to top	"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013 Num num num num. IP Logged

matty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11055
East Sydney
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #79 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:14pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:23pm:

I wonder why no body bothers to make comprehensive OPs any more. This is on its 6th pageand not one person has even posted on topic.

every single poster has reverted to type, adopted their usual position without a single reference whatsoever to the actual topic.

it is beyond pointless.

It was a very good post, longy. If anything, the problem is that it was spot on, and there is nothing to add the Greens and Labor supporters cannot defend the very detailed facts that you cited, and I completely agree with you. The Greens have peaked, and they're on the road to absolute nowhere. If they are still polling about 1/3 of Labor's vote, when Labor is in the state that they are now, what possible hope do they have?

Back to top

BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

IP Logged

matty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11055
East Sydney
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #80 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:16pm

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

I'm not saying he absolutely won't repeal it, he might be unlucky enough to gain control of the senate and then feel politically compelled to repeal the tax. What I'm saying is that sooner or later this country will have a price on carbon and all Abbott is doing is stalling our shift to the new economic paradigm. If we are lucky he might bring forward the ETS in lieu of the tax. Thereby maintaining some semblance of economic responsibility while technically maintaining his commitment to the Australian Public.

I really don't know where you're getting these ideas. Why is it inevitable? The USA doesn't have one, neither does the UK, neither does China, India, Russia, Brazil or Canada. I mean, which countries actually do?

Back to top

BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

IP Logged

matty

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 11055
East Sydney
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #81 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

Back to top

BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!!

IP Logged

matty Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 11055 East Sydney Gender:	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #82 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:19pm Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm: What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy? With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy. Longy's views, and my views, for that matter, are shared by the majority of Australians. Most Australians DESPISE the Greens.
Back to top	« Last Edit: Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:13pm by matty » BILL SHORTEN WILL NEVER BE PM!!!! IP Logged

corporate_whitey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8896 Archivist	Re: What now for the Greens? Reply #83 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:19pm The Nationals need to develop their water policy to counter the city socialists.
Back to top	World Wide Working Class Struggle IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #84 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:34pm

____ wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 1:11pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 1:03pm:

Simply by announcing a focus on rural seats she makes the Nationals deliver more than they have!!

Alll rivers flow into the sea....

sustainablity

is where it has to go one way or the other so morally THE GREENS WIN THE ARGUMENT.

THIS IS CALLED THE MORAL LAW: it logically should lead to an increase in votes all things staying the same, but they won't as the Nats will be forced to make changes and changes they will make as the threat is very real!!

THE GAME IS PLAYING ITSELF,... CHRISTINE WILL GAIN A REPUTATION FOR MAKING THINGS COME TOGETHER AS A CONSEQUENCE. Wink

Christine will win support in the bush. Just the attack by the CSG industry along with the old parties, the rural voter can use the Greens to fight this attack.

All Greens require in the near future is more attention on educating voters on our economic ability.

Yes, the CSG might be a usable platform for the Greens.....(for those farmers that don't want to earn money from the pumping stations)....however, unless the Greens modify their stance on other subjects, they won't make too much headway in the bush.

As a friend of a friend put it..."I won't vote Greens, because I like to hunt and fish"...

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #85 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:36pm

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I think 'pathological' is a word you reead somewhere and use without knowing what it means. Heres a suggestion: look it up and learm. In the meantime how about respond to an analysis in the same spirit as it was given - comprehensively and intelligently.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #86 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:37pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:34pm:

____ wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 1:11pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 1:03pm:

Simply by announcing a focus on rural seats she makes the Nationals deliver more than they have!!

Alll rivers flow into the sea....

sustainablity

is where it has to go one way or the other so morally THE GREENS WIN THE ARGUMENT.

THIS IS CALLED THE MORAL LAW: it logically should lead to an increase in votes all things staying the same, but they won't as the Nats will be forced to make changes and changes they will make as the threat is very real!!

THE GAME IS PLAYING ITSELF,... CHRISTINE WILL GAIN A REPUTATION FOR MAKING THINGS COME TOGETHER AS A CONSEQUENCE. Wink

Christine will win support in the bush. Just the attack by the CSG industry along with the old parties, the rural voter can use the Greens to fight this attack.

All Greens require in the near future is more attention on educating voters on our economic ability.

Yes, the CSG might be a usable platform for the Greens.....(for those farmers that don't want to earn money from the pumping stations)....however, unless the Greens modify their stance on other subjects, they won't make too much headway in the bush.

As a friend of a friend put it..."I won't vote Greens, because I like to hunt and fish"...

well the Greens are anti dams for one thing. Out in the bush that is about as dumb as you can get.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Life_goes_on

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 4772
400kms south of Yobsville, Qld
Gender: male

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #87 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:38pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:36pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

What's with the sheer and utter hatred of the Greens, Longy?

With you it's pathological and that can't be healthy.

I think 'pathological' is a word you reead somewhere and use without knowing what it means. Heres a suggestion: look it up and learm. In the meantime how about respond to an analysis in the same spirit as it was given - comprehensively and intelligently.

On here? naaaaa, it ain't f-ckin' worth the effort.

Back to top

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

IP Logged

Kat

Gold Member

Offline

Socialism IS the answer.

Posts: 17709
Everywhere and no-where
Gender: female

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #88 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:52pm

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

No, actually it's not.

It's certainly not impossible.

Remember when the NSW state govt (Carr) wanted to abolish some
motorway tolls a few years ago?

He found that the previous govt had signed a contract with ironclad
guarantees of MASSIVE compensation to the (private) contractor.

He wouldn't spend taxpayers' money to do that, so the tolls remained.

Would YOU be naive enough to believe that the Red Dalek wouldn't
set a similar trap for the Toe-nail?

No, don't bother, we know the answer....

Back to top

IP Logged

progressiveslol

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 17029

Re: What now for the Greens?
Reply #89 - Apr 16^th, 2012 at 7:04pm

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:52pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 6:18pm:

Kat wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 4:50pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:59pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:52pm:

MOTR wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

matty wrote on Apr 16^th, 2012 at 3:38pm:

Here is a theory of mine about what may happen after the next election. It's a very long-shot, but you never know. If Labor blocks the repeal of the carbon tax in the Senate, they will be forever tainted as in Coalition with them. If, however, they had the pride to admit that the carbon tax was forced upon them (as if most Labor MPs actually support the tax itself) from the Greens, and that they apologise and/or realise that it was the wrong thing to do, they would probably reclaim A LOT of lost support. They would also, of course, be abiding by the electorate's wish. Not very likely to happen, though.

You don't get it. This is a necessary reform that will happen. The Libs are playing politics with it and that will be remembered long after the next election.

A) it is not a reform by even any loose meaning of the word
B) it is not necssary
C) it has no chance of acheiveing its objectives since it has failed everywhere else in the world
D) it is hated by 2/3 of people

so why not get rid of something no one wants, wont work but will at least damage our economy. The carbon tax WILL be repealed with a groundswell of public opinion.

It's shameful and despicable how Labor/Green supporters are trying to conduct this smear campaign that Mr Abbott won't repeal it. It will be the very first thing that he does. His political future depends on it, and unlike Gillard, he actually possesses credibility and integrity.

This is my take on what will happen....(from an earlier thread).

Kat wrote: - "My bet is that, upon attaining power, Toe-nail will 'discover' any number of
reasons why the CT 'can't' be abolished. These reasons will, of course, be
blamed on Labor.

They will also, of course, be highly fictitious.

BUT, I also predict that he will find NO such impediment to
clawing back every cent of any compensation paid.

I may be wrong, but I doubt it very much. "

Kat, how did you come to this conclusion? It's as wrong as saying that I want the poor to pay more than the middle/upper class.

No, actually it's not.

It's certainly not impossible.

Remember when the NSW state govt (Carr) wanted to abolish some
motorway tolls a few years ago?

He found that the previous govt had signed a contract with ironclad
guarantees of MASSIVE compensation to the (private) contractor.

He wouldn't spend taxpayers' money to do that, so the tolls remained.

Would YOU be naive enough to believe that the Red Dalek wouldn't
set a similar trap for the Toe-nail?

No, don't bother, we know the answer....

You mean like this story says about Carr

Bob Carr had joined Macquarie, some said with unseemly haste, in October 2005, just three months after his 10-year stint as premier of NSW. It was a time of prosperity for NSW, and far greater prosperity for Macquarie.

Under Carr's Labor government, and the Liberals which preceded him for that matter, Macquarie put its foot on most of the toll road concessions around Sydney. These were to become the bastions of the bank's profit-churning powerhouse.

and more
http://m.smh.com.au/business/macquarie-on-rocky-road-as-carr-rides-off-20120308-...

or are you talking about the cross city tunnel debacle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_City_Tunnel

Back to top

IP Logged