Australian Politics Forum - Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical

cassie022

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #60 - May 31^st, 2012 at 8:35pm

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:49pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:34pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

cassie022 wrote on May 30^th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 2:30pm:

What are these country shoppers upset about. Oh did I say country shoppers, I meant people who are afraid of their home land and are afraid to return because of death, but have the goul to complain about being safe in a country and its complex.

If they dont want to wait, then stop throwing your papers overboard. They will rightly wait until we can figure out who they are.

Or we could just send all the males into childrens bedrooms like labor.

I am very curious as to what you would call being "safe"? Because suicide attempts, self-harm, hunger strikes, children witnessing this and engaging in these behaviours themselves, poor access to medical and mental health services etc certainly does not sound safe to me.

Well that sounds more like escaping from themselves rather than their country. so they should be sent back as it is clear that it is not the country they come from that is the problem. It is them that are the problem.

Do you actually know anything about mental illness or the effects or trauma? It doesn't happen in a vaccum. Factors such as, lets say, having your rights as a human removed because you fled a country where you were watching your family be tortured and murdered kinda have an impact on your mental health. Asylum seekers need to receive counselling and support, not to be locked up and treated like criminals.

They removed their right for immediate freedom when they got on the boat. They should be thankful for being in the safety of another country and will get their freedom soon.

Give them councelling by all means.

Maybe you should have a read of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. No person ever has their rights "removed" as a human being. They are called "inalienable" and "inherent" for this exact reason.

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salad in

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #61 - May 31^st, 2012 at 9:14pm

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Do you really think that the official documents are going to tell you the truth? Aside from anything else:

"In addition, while asylum seekers and refugees are in Australian territory (or otherwise subject to Australian law), the Australian Government has obligations under various international treaties to ensure that their human rights are respected and protected. These treaties include the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the Convention Against Torture and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. These rights include the right not to be arbitrarily detained"

Quoted directly from the Australian Human Rights Commission. Detaining people arbitrarily is against international law. When asylum seekers get to Australia they are detained straight away without any proof that they have committed a crime.

There's your evidence that Mandatory Detention is unjust.

Good point. I'll trump you with the Australian Constitution (remember that document?):

Quote:

Australian Constitution – Chapter 1, Part 5
Powers of the Parliament
Sections 51-60

Section 51 – Legislative powers of the Parliament

The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:-

(xix.) Naturalization and aliens:

(xxvi.) The people of any race, for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws:

(xxvii.) Immigration and emigration:

(xxviii.) The influx of criminals:

OUR parliament does have the power to detain people who arrived illegally. That power was granted in the year 1901.

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The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

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personwhocares

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #62 - May 31^st, 2012 at 9:56pm

salad in wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 9:14pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:30pm:

Do you really think that the official documents are going to tell you the truth? Aside from anything else:

"In addition, while asylum seekers and refugees are in Australian territory (or otherwise subject to Australian law), the Australian Government has obligations under various international treaties to ensure that their human rights are respected and protected. These treaties include the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, the Convention Against Torture and the Convention on the Rights of the Child. These rights include the right not to be arbitrarily detained"

Quoted directly from the Australian Human Rights Commission. Detaining people arbitrarily is against international law. When asylum seekers get to Australia they are detained straight away without any proof that they have committed a crime.

There's your evidence that Mandatory Detention is unjust.

Good point. I'll trump you with the Australian Constitution (remember that document?):

Quote:

Australian Constitution – Chapter 1, Part 5
Powers of the Parliament
Sections 51-60

Section 51 – Legislative powers of the Parliament

The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:-

(xix.) Naturalization and aliens:

(xxvi.) The people of any race, for whom it is deemed necessary to make special laws:

(xxvii.) Immigration and emigration:

(xxviii.) The influx of criminals:

OUR parliament does have the power to detain people who arrived illegally. That power was granted in the year 1901.

Just because the government has the right to remove Human Rights doesn't make it just. Plenty of governments have given themselves rights which are inhumane (thinking about a certain German government in the 1930's and 40's here...)
And in 1901 we didn't exactly have the global issues we have now, perhaps it is time for the Constitution to be updated?

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personwhocares New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7 Gender:	Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical Reply #63 - May 31^st, 2012 at 9:58pm And check the human rights documents... there is no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker.
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Uncle Meat

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #64 - May 31^st, 2012 at 11:05pm

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 9:58pm:

And check the human rights documents... there is no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker.

That fact doesn't go down well in this forum.

Although you are 100% correct, some of these imbeciles still believe that there is such a thing as an "illegal asylum seeker".

I have a little chuckle every time I see those morons use that phrase.

Wink

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical Reply #65 - May 31^st, 2012 at 11:28pm Guildford wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:26am: Australia, as you would know if you were indeed a true Aussie is the land of football, meat pies and Holden cars. And kangaroos. Don't forget the kangaroos.
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progressiveslol

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #66 - Jun 1^st, 2012 at 12:20am

cassie022 wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 8:35pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:49pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:34pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

cassie022 wrote on May 30^th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 2:30pm:

What are these country shoppers upset about. Oh did I say country shoppers, I meant people who are afraid of their home land and are afraid to return because of death, but have the goul to complain about being safe in a country and its complex.

If they dont want to wait, then stop throwing your papers overboard. They will rightly wait until we can figure out who they are.

Or we could just send all the males into childrens bedrooms like labor.

I am very curious as to what you would call being "safe"? Because suicide attempts, self-harm, hunger strikes, children witnessing this and engaging in these behaviours themselves, poor access to medical and mental health services etc certainly does not sound safe to me.

Well that sounds more like escaping from themselves rather than their country. so they should be sent back as it is clear that it is not the country they come from that is the problem. It is them that are the problem.

Do you actually know anything about mental illness or the effects or trauma? It doesn't happen in a vaccum. Factors such as, lets say, having your rights as a human removed because you fled a country where you were watching your family be tortured and murdered kinda have an impact on your mental health. Asylum seekers need to receive counselling and support, not to be locked up and treated like criminals.

They removed their right for immediate freedom when they got on the boat. They should be thankful for being in the safety of another country and will get their freedom soon.

Give them councelling by all means.

Maybe you should have a read of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. No person ever has their rights "removed" as a human being. They are called "inalienable" and "inherent" for this exact reason.

UN are pussies and there has to be an area set aside for Australians to figure out who these people are.

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personwhocares New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7 Gender:	Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical Reply #67 - Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 4:42pm Of course there does. But keeping people locked up indefinately is not the answer. 90% get granted visa's anyway so why not start helping them settle into their new country instead of causing them more psychological harm?
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personwhocares

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #68 - Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 4:42pm

Uncle Meat wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 11:05pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 9:58pm:

And check the human rights documents... there is no such thing as an illegal asylum seeker.

That fact doesn't go down well in this forum.

Although you are 100% correct, some of these imbeciles still believe that there is such a thing as an "illegal asylum seeker".

I have a little chuckle every time I see those morons use that phrase.

Wink

This forum should have a 'like' buttion

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #69 - Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:17pm

cassie022 wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 8:35pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:49pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:34pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

cassie022 wrote on May 30^th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 2:30pm:

What are these country shoppers upset about. Oh did I say country shoppers, I meant people who are afraid of their home land and are afraid to return because of death, but have the goul to complain about being safe in a country and its complex.

If they dont want to wait, then stop throwing your papers overboard. They will rightly wait until we can figure out who they are.

Or we could just send all the males into childrens bedrooms like labor.

I am very curious as to what you would call being "safe"? Because suicide attempts, self-harm, hunger strikes, children witnessing this and engaging in these behaviours themselves, poor access to medical and mental health services etc certainly does not sound safe to me.

Well that sounds more like escaping from themselves rather than their country. so they should be sent back as it is clear that it is not the country they come from that is the problem. It is them that are the problem.

Do you actually know anything about mental illness or the effects or trauma? It doesn't happen in a vaccum. Factors such as, lets say, having your rights as a human removed because you fled a country where you were watching your family be tortured and murdered kinda have an impact on your mental health. Asylum seekers need to receive counselling and support, not to be locked up and treated like criminals.

They removed their right for immediate freedom when they got on the boat. They should be thankful for being in the safety of another country and will get their freedom soon.

Give them councelling by all means.

Maybe you should have a read of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. No person ever has their rights "removed" as a human being. They are called "inalienable" and "inherent" for this exact reason.

The Universal declaration of human rights was not signed by Islamic countries as it violates Islamic law, they have the Cairo declaration and the last clauses show that sharia law trumps human rights.

Thanks to the myopic dopey leftists we have to go through being blackmailed by these idiots with self harm if we dont bend over and give them the red carpet ride to centrelink.

83.5% of all boat people are still on centrelink benefits up to 5 years after arriving in Australia, the government left out how many are on pensions hoping nobody would notice

3200 out of 3237 boat people surveyed, almost 99% of them said they flew into Indonesia with a passport and visa before disposing of their passports to come to Australia by boat.

Why would you pay a people smuggler 10x what it costs to fly in to come in on a unseaworthy boat after flying into Indonesia with a passport and visa?

It was Keating who introduced mandatory detention you dopey leftists

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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personwhocares

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #70 - Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 4:23pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2012 at 5:17pm:

cassie022 wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 8:35pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:49pm:

personwhocares wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 7:34pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 31^st, 2012 at 1:06pm:

cassie022 wrote on May 30^th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 9^th, 2012 at 2:30pm:

What are these country shoppers upset about. Oh did I say country shoppers, I meant people who are afraid of their home land and are afraid to return because of death, but have the goul to complain about being safe in a country and its complex.

If they dont want to wait, then stop throwing your papers overboard. They will rightly wait until we can figure out who they are.

Or we could just send all the males into childrens bedrooms like labor.

I am very curious as to what you would call being "safe"? Because suicide attempts, self-harm, hunger strikes, children witnessing this and engaging in these behaviours themselves, poor access to medical and mental health services etc certainly does not sound safe to me.

Well that sounds more like escaping from themselves rather than their country. so they should be sent back as it is clear that it is not the country they come from that is the problem. It is them that are the problem.

Do you actually know anything about mental illness or the effects or trauma? It doesn't happen in a vaccum. Factors such as, lets say, having your rights as a human removed because you fled a country where you were watching your family be tortured and murdered kinda have an impact on your mental health. Asylum seekers need to receive counselling and support, not to be locked up and treated like criminals.

They removed their right for immediate freedom when they got on the boat. They should be thankful for being in the safety of another country and will get their freedom soon.

Give them councelling by all means.

Maybe you should have a read of the UN Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. No person ever has their rights "removed" as a human being. They are called "inalienable" and "inherent" for this exact reason.

The Universal declaration of human rights was not signed by Islamic countries as it violates Islamic law, they have the Cairo declaration and the last clauses show that sharia law trumps human rights.

Thanks to the myopic dopey leftists we have to go through being blackmailed by these idiots with self harm if we dont bend over and give them the red carpet ride to centrelink.

83.5% of all boat people are still on centrelink benefits up to 5 years after arriving in Australia, the government left out how many are on pensions hoping nobody would notice

3200 out of 3237 boat people surveyed, almost 99% of them said they flew into Indonesia with a passport and visa before disposing of their passports to come to Australia by boat.

Why would you pay a people smuggler 10x what it costs to fly in to come in on a unseaworthy boat after flying into Indonesia with a passport and visa?

It was Keating who introduced mandatory detention you dopey leftists

Nice personal attack on people's intellect.. totally on topic.

But anyway.. who cares who introduced the policy? It still does not make it fair or humane.

In regards to Centrelink... how hard do you think it would be to get a job when you don't speak the language, have mental health issues due to trauma, and are in a country that is inherently racist?

In regards to flying in with a visa.. Exactly, why would you? Unless you are desperate? Why would you pay that much money to put you and your family on a boat that has questionable safety? Maybe because the country that you are trying to get to has an insanely low intake of refugees (making it incredibly difficult to get a refugee visa prior to entering the country) and you have spent 5-10 years sitting in a refugee camp with no access to health care or education, questionable sanitary levels, and human rights abuses? Maybe the next place you go might be better, but then you get here and find yourself only slightly better off, if at all. If Australia upped it's intake of refugees so many of these issues could be absolved.

We are one of the richest nations in the world. Why don't we quit our whinging and actually do something to help people who need it? I would much rather pay taxes to help an asylum seeker than to give handouts to people to go and buy a new TV.

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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical Reply #71 - Jun 4^th, 2012 at 1:42am personwhocares wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2012 at 4:23pm: We are one of the richest nations in the world. Why don't we quit our whinging and actually do something to help people who need it? I would much rather pay taxes to help an asylum seeker than to give handouts to people to go and buy a new TV. Nice post.
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CatnipDream

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #72 - Jun 4^th, 2012 at 5:13pm

Dear Progessiveslol,

1. "Or we could just send all the males into childrens bedrooms like labor." ??? Massive creep?!

2. "Well that sounds more like escaping from themselves rather than their country. so they should be sent back as it is clear that it is not the country they come from that is the problem. It is them that are the problem." Pretty sure it was the country that they came from that caused them trauma to begin with, so maybe we shouldn't send them back there?

3. "Give them councelling by all means." *counselling

Where's your compassion, mate?

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cassie022

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #73 - Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:34pm

Quote:

The Universal declaration of human rights was not signed by Islamic countries as it violates Islamic law, they have the Cairo declaration and the last clauses show that sharia law trumps human rights.

Thanks to the myopic dopey leftists we have to go through being blackmailed by these idiots with self harm if we dont bend over and give them the red carpet ride to centrelink.

83.5% of all boat people are still on centrelink benefits up to 5 years after arriving in Australia, the government left out how many are on pensions hoping nobody would notice

3200 out of 3237 boat people surveyed, almost 99% of them said they flew into Indonesia with a passport and visa before disposing of their passports to come to Australia by boat.

Why would you pay a people smuggler 10x what it costs to fly in to come in on a unseaworthy boat after flying into Indonesia with a passport and visa?

It was Keating who introduced mandatory detention you dopey leftists

The reason why so many asylum seekers and refugees are on Centrelink is because Australian's do a very poor job of helping them resettle into Australia.

- Most refugees do not know how to speak English or have any literacy skills in English - how would they go getting a job?
- They know very little about the Australian system or how to navigate it i.e. would not know how or where to get a job, how to access services etc unless somebody is helping them
- Most Australian services are "culturally unfriendly", so even if they did work out how to access them they would be of little benefit
- They have a lack of access to an interpreter
- And they are extremely discriminated against by Australian society

How would you go about navigating the Australian system with all of these barriers? And yet, we do nothing to help. I don't expect that you would be able to walk into a foreign country and know exactly what you're doing.

And what about all of the Australian citizens who remain on Centrelink benefits their entire lives. What makes them any different?

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Long Term Mandatory Detention Is Illogical
Reply #74 - Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:50pm

cassie022 wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:34pm:

Quote:

The Universal declaration of human rights was not signed by Islamic countries as it violates Islamic law, they have the Cairo declaration and the last clauses show that sharia law trumps human rights.

Thanks to the myopic dopey leftists we have to go through being blackmailed by these idiots with self harm if we dont bend over and give them the red carpet ride to centrelink.

83.5% of all boat people are still on centrelink benefits up to 5 years after arriving in Australia, the government left out how many are on pensions hoping nobody would notice

3200 out of 3237 boat people surveyed, almost 99% of them said they flew into Indonesia with a passport and visa before disposing of their passports to come to Australia by boat.

Why would you pay a people smuggler 10x what it costs to fly in to come in on a unseaworthy boat after flying into Indonesia with a passport and visa?

It was Keating who introduced mandatory detention you dopey leftists

The reason why so many asylum seekers and refugees are on Centrelink is because Australian's do a very poor job of helping them resettle into Australia.

- Most refugees do not know how to speak English or have any literacy skills in English - how would they go getting a job?
- They know very little about the Australian system or how to navigate it i.e. would not know how or where to get a job, how to access services etc unless somebody is helping them
- Most Australian services are "culturally unfriendly", so even if they did work out how to access them they would be of little benefit
- They have a lack of access to an interpreter
- And they are extremely discriminated against by Australian society

How would you go about navigating the Australian system with all of these barriers? And yet, we do nothing to help. I don't expect that you would be able to walk into a foreign country and know exactly what you're doing.

And what about all of the Australian citizens who remain on Centrelink benefits their entire lives. What makes them any different?

Then why settle in a country where you can't speak the language, know nothing about the system, cannot access services, can't access interpreters (actually they can at centrelink) etc?

Do they have any responsibilities? Or is it all our fault that they decided to come here uneducated and unprepared?

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