Australian Politics Forum - Pesticides tied to decline in bee population

bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #15 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:28pm Muso, Would you not agree tho that GM and to a certain extent pesticides is something that should have been researched, tested and improved for a very long time before it was released on the large scale that it was? Is this not enough reason to have great concern and contempt for the biotech corps?
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barnaby joe Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1992 euchareena	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #16 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:28pm ok but its just that when i hear the word 'natural' to imply an unqualified good red flags go off in my head
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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #17 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:29pm barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:28pm: ok but its just that when i hear the word 'natural' to imply an unqualified good red flags go off in my head Natural in the sense it doesnt happen over night and can actually correct genetic problems.
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barnaby joe Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1992 euchareena	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #18 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:31pm plant eugenics
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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #19 - Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:36pm barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:31pm: plant eugenics Pretty much
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muso

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #20 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 11:23am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:23pm:

Quote:

What I'm saying is that some of these people are cherry picking. They seize on a property of a particular substance, but fail to contextualise that in terms of actual exposure. It's also clear from some of the language used, that they don't understand the basics.

This is an issue that you can come at from a million different angles.
There are a million different problems.
And that clearly does work to the biotech corporation’s advantage.
I wouldn’t say people are cherry picking but working as a society to paint a big picture from many different brush strokes.

In terms of exposure the level is high and that is not really a point of argument even by Monsanto and the like.

Seems silly to say they don’t know anything..
We both know there are thousands of scientists in the field against it and for good reason

One of the problems is that most of what you read about it on the web is written by non-technical people who make some terrible gaffes.

I really don't want to get involved in this any more than to say - Don't believe everything you read on this. I would far rather be involved in a roadside incident that involved Glyphosate than any of the Organophosphorus, or Organochlorine based pesticides, and I've been aksed to advise on both.

By the way, the word "pesticide" used to be used to describe substances that were used to control faunal and micro-faunal pests. Nowadays, it also includes herbicides, some relatively non-toxic (such as glyphosate) and some (such as paraquat or N,N′-dimethyl-4,4′-bipyridinium dichloride) extremely toxic. Lumping all these substances together is a bit misleading in itself and can lead to inappropriate generalisation.

All I suggest is to tread cautiously when reading articles for public consumption.

As far as GMO's are concerned, they might actually save us in the long run. Evolution can't cope with the projected changes in climate, but genetically engineered foraminifera may help us with biosedimentation of excess CO2 from the oceans. They could be a last resort solution to ocean acidification.

The way things are going, we'll probably need large scale bioengineering. You may shudder at the thought, but it's a reality. We may not have an option. The world's giovernments seem intent on the lemming strategy.

I often think that some environmental activists are wasting a lot of time and effort "rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic".

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #21 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 11:39am

Once again Muso you’re giving all opinion and no fact.
Nothing you are saying can come close to combating the information I have posted on this thread.

Quote:

One of the problems is that most of what you read about it on the web is written by non-technical people who make some terrible gaffes.

Muso please stop trying to discredit me and my argument by stating this over and over when I have answered this point from you many times in this thread.
It is simply not true for the majority.
There is more than enough accurate information and scientific study supporting my opinion.

Quote:

I really don't want to get involved in this any more than to say - Don't believe everything you read on this. I would far rather be involved in a roadside incident that involved Glyphosate than any of the Organophosphorus, or Organochlorine based pesticides, and I've been aksed to advise on both.

Says the person who believes what the people selling it is telling him?
We know they are dangerous and the fact is they should not have been forced into the entire worlds food supply.

Quote:

By the way, the word "pesticide" used to be used to describe substances that were used to control faunal and micro-faunal pests. Nowadays, it also includes herbicides, some relatively non-toxic (such as glyphosate) and some (such as paraquat or N,N′-dimethyl-4,4′-bipyridinium dichloride) extremely toxic. Lumping all these substances together is a bit misleading in itself and can lead to inappropriate generalisation.

Irrelevant really, the major brands of pesticides are linked to huge medical, environmental and genetic problems.
You are trying to ignore this by focusing on one ingredient.

Quote:

All I suggest is to tread cautiously when reading articles for public consumption.

The same clearly goes for you.
For your information I have reviewed thousands of articles relating to the subject evenly from the pro and against side.
I have based my opinion on fact, and there is plenty enough fact around to do so.
You are the one generalizing one entire side of the story based on the say of a minute few; this does not justify you ignoring the important facts like you so clearly are.

Quote:

As far as GMO's are concerned, they might actually save us in the long run. Evolution can't cope with the projected changes in climate, but genetically engineered foraminifera may help us with biosedimentation of excess CO2 from the oceans. They could be a last resort solution to ocean acidification.

Links please.

I think you will find that plants would cope quite well, see an actual plant greenhouse for examples.

GM and the involved pesticides are contributing far more pollution, dangerous chemicals and sediment into our oceans and water supplies.

Quote:

The way things are going, we'll probably need large scale bioengineering. You may shudder at the thought, but it's a reality. We may not have an option. The world's giovernments seem intent on the lemming strategy.

Links please.

Have you ever heard of aquaponics? There are plenty of cheap and efficient methods we can use instead of GM.

You are right; we don’t have an option because it has been forced on the entire world population.

World governments excluding the US, UK and Australia are waking up to the dangers and paying attention the scientific data and research which show they should not allow it to be grown.

Quote:

I often think that some environmental activists are wasting a lot of time and effort "rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic".

Your an idiot.

LET’S SEE SOME FACTS
LET’S SEE YOU COME UP WITH MORE THEN I HAVE!
STOP FOCUSING ON A TINY PART OF THE ISSUE TO TRY AND DISCREDIT THE ENTIRE THING.

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muso

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #22 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 11:47am

Let me expand on that deckchair comment with some examples.

In developed countries, we have the luxury of being able to buy "organic" foods, but the reality is that it's not sustainable because it comes at lower yields. As I said before, the world would starve if forced to grow everything organically.

The brutal fact is that we need chemical pesticides, fertilisers and herbicides. We can't sustain our global population without them.

We also need industry, and all industry pollutes. It's always a question of balancing risks.

The Greenpeaces of this world throw their arms up in horror because of chlorination of water. "Chlorination produces dioxins!" is their catchcry. Well sure it does, but again it's a question of balancing risk. If you ask anybody in a remote African village if they would prefer the risk of dioxins to the risk of pathogens (eg bacteria), the dioxin risk wins hands down.

You just have to look at the Age Expectancy in developed countries. These technological solutions such as chlorination, vaccination and the risks associated with industry carry a risk, but that risk is miniscule when compared to the risks of not chlorinating, not vaccinating, and living in a backward society without technology.

Whenever environmental activists come up with "serious issues", I'm not saying that you should accept those issues without question, or reject them totally. All I'm saying is that the risk should be considered in context. The way they present it sometimes, you would think that Western countries would have a life expectancy of 51 and those with more natural lifestyles should have a life expectancy of 86. In fact it's the opposite way around.

Quote:

Irrelevant really, the major brands of pesticides are linked to huge medical, environmental and genetic problems. You are trying to ignore this by focusing on one ingredient.

In the context of what I've just said, how is that risk balanced by the risks of not using pesticides?

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muso

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #23 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 11:56am

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:28pm:

Muso,
Would you not agree tho that GM and to a certain extent pesticides is something that should have been researched, tested and improved for a very long time before it was released on the large scale that it was?
Is this not enough reason to have great concern and contempt for the biotech corps?

Answer me one thing - Do you believe that you can get genetic damage from oil (cooking oil) that has been distilled from oilseed and then processed by your digestive system?

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #24 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:00pm

LINKS PLEASE

Quote:

In developed countries, we have the luxury of being able to buy "organic" foods, but the reality is that it's not sustainable because it comes at lower yields. As I said before, the world would starve if forced to grow everything organically.

The brutal fact is that we need chemical pesticides, fertilisers and herbicides. We can't sustain our global population without them.

Links please.

You will find there are many cheap, effecient and sustainable organic methods to grow crops with large yields.
Also it is not sensible to destroy long term food supply for short term gain like GM does.

Quote:

We also need industry, and all industry pollutes. It's always a question of balancing risks.

Links please.
This is the most stupid thing you have said so far.

Sorry Muso but I am not responding to the rest of your post.
This is redicioulous.
Return with some facts and evidence.

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bobbythefap1

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #25 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:01pm

muso wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 11:56am:

bobbythefap1 wrote on Apr 1^st, 2012 at 6:28pm:

Muso,
Would you not agree tho that GM and to a certain extent pesticides is something that should have been researched, tested and improved for a very long time before it was released on the large scale that it was?
Is this not enough reason to have great concern and contempt for the biotech corps?

Answer me one thing - Do you believe that you can get genetic damage from oil (cooking oil) that has been distilled from oilseed and then processed by your digestive system?

Muso I am not going to answer this question again.
This entire thread you have ignored the majority of what has been said and the facts that have been given.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 41823 Gender:	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #26 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:44pm My Cucumbers have had just 2 fruits, many flowers. resorted to hand pollinating them the other week, after doing the pumpkins
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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #27 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:45pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 12:44pm: My Cucumbers have had just 2 fruits, many flowers. resorted to hand pollinating them the other week, after doing the pumpkins Just another serious problem as a result of GM.
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chimera Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 15426 Armidale Gender:	Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population Reply #28 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 1:30pm deleted
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bobbythefap1

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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #29 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 4:01pm

Monsanto Corn Plant Losing Bug Resistance

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904009304576532742267732046.html

Quote:

Widely grown corn plants that Monsanto Co. genetically modified to thwart a voracious bug are falling prey to that very pest in a few Iowa fields, the first time a major Midwest scourge has developed resistance to a genetically modified crop.

The discovery raises concerns that the way some farmers are using biotech crops could spawn superbugs.

Iowa State University entomologist Aaron Gassmann's discovery that western corn rootworms in four northeast Iowa fields have evolved to resist the natural pesticide made by Monsanto's corn plant could encourage some farmers to switch to insect-proof seeds sold by competitors of the St. ...

Here's a living example where Monsanto Bt Corn (GE spliced with Bacillus thuringiensis DNA which provides an in-plant pesticide on rootworms and caterpillars)... has FAILED and the corn plants have lost pest resistance in the WORST way: the rootworms, earworms, and caterpillars in subsequent generations have developed a mutant strain RESISTANT to Bacillus thuringiensis which had never yet occured before Monsanto splicing the Bt into Corn genes and upon consumption passing on a Bt resistant strain in subsequent generation.

EPA: Monsanto GMO Corn Failing, Resistance Evolving

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/12/02/1041774/-EPA-Monsanto-GMO-Corn-Failing-...

Quote:

Severe crop damage to GMO Monsanto BT corn from rootworms which have developed resistance to BT has prompted the EPA to issue a memo to Monsanto demanding a remedial action plan that includes using conventional pesticides, crop rotation and GMO crop free refuges. Because GMO corn, and Roundup used on it, accounts for 41% of Monsanto's profits, Monsanto's stock price plunged on the news. Monsanto continues to claim that there is no scientific evidence of developing resistance despite EPA's memo and multiple EPA confirmed reports from multiple states.

Quote:

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

The BPPD IRM Team concludes that Cry3Bb1 resistance is suspected in at least some portions of four states in which “unexpected damage” reports originated (IA, IL, MN, and NE) and recommends that the Cry3Bb1 remedial action plan be implemented for “suspected resistance”. The BPPD IRM Team’s conclusions are based on multiple documented cases of unexpected “severe” corn rootworm damage to Cry3Bb1 fields
(Gassmann et al. 2011a; Gray 2011a, c) and other undocumented reports from corn entomologists. The 2009 resistance monitoring data for Cry3Bb1 showed that field-collected populations (collected from Illinois, Iowa, and Nebraska) were less susceptible to the toxin than the laboratory reference colony. In 2009, every field-collected population had a higher EC50 and LC50 than the laboratory control, in some cases by an order of magnitude.

Sampling was conducted in three states (Nebraska, Illinois, and Iowa); the BPPD IRM Team recommends that Colorado, South Dakota, Minnesota, and western Wisconsin be included in future monitoring based on the registrant’s reported Cry3Bb1 performance inquiries. After reviewing Monsanto’s overall resistance monitoring strategy for Cry3Bb1 (including responses to previous Agency reviews), the BPPD IRM Team concludes that the registrant’s current resistance monitoring program (as proposed) is inadequate and likely to miss early resistance events. This is due to a sampling trigger (> 1.5 NIS) in fields with unexpected damage that is too high (and may miss potentially resistant populations) and a sampling regime that collects beetles too far (1-2 miles away) from problem fields.

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