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Pesticides tied to decline in bee population (Read 9424 times)
bobbythefap1
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Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:00pm
 
Neonicotinoid pesticides tied to decline in bee's

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10921493-neonicotinoid-pesticides-t...

Quote:
By Miguel Llanos, msnbc.com

A widely used farm pesticide first introduced in the 1990s has caused significant changes to bee colonies and removing it could be the key factor in restoring nature's army of pollinators, according to two studies released Thursday.

The scientists behind the studies in Europe called for regulators to consider banning the class of chemicals known as neonicotinoid insecticides. In the U.S., the Environmental Protection Agency told msnbc.com that the studies would be incorporated into a review that's currently under way.

A pesticide trade group questioned the data, saying the levels of pesticide used were unrealistically high, while the researchers said the levels used were typical of what bees would find on farms.


Something seems wrong here, there have been studies for decades linking pesticides to many dangerous problems and the media has never paid attention.
Without a doubt the decline in bee populations is one of the biggest problems the human race faces, but why do they listen now?
I am guess the big bio tech corporations don't need to use it anymore and have a new alternative, or that this certain type of pesticide is being used as a scapegoat to make it look like something is actually being done about the issue of dangerous pesticide in general.
There have been studies done linking many types of pesticides to bee population decline.


... Quote:
AAS / Science

A bee with a transmitter glued to its back was one of the specimens in a study that used the radio technology to track what happened to bee colonies exposed to a widely used pesticide.


Problem is bee's are exposed to multible pesticides, chemicals and GMO crops.

Quote:
In the bumble bee study, researchers concluded that colonies treated with nonlethal levels of the pesticide "had a significantly reduced growth rate and suffered an 85% reduction in production of new queens" compared to colonies without the pesticide.


Related links:
http://bayer-kills-bees.com/
http://proliberty.com/observer/20090408.htm
http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/20120202_ge-honeybee
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colony_collapse_disorder


Mass honeybee deaths now occurring worldwide, says UN
http://www.naturalnews.com/031694_honeybees_decline.html

More Damning Evidence Points to Pesticide as Cause of Mass Bee Deaths
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/30-9
[url]A new study published in Naturwissenschaften - The Science of Nature by a leading bee expert provides damning evidence that a widely used pesticide, even at low levels, is responsible for the recent catastrophic decline in honey bees. Dr. Jeff Pettis of the USDA's Bee Research Laboratory in Beltsville, MD led the study.[/url]




Quote:
If the bee disappeared off the surface of the globe, then man would only have a fewr years of life left


...
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« Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:08pm by bobbythefap1 »  

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Re: Neonicotinoid pesticides tied to decline in bee's
Reply #1 - Mar 30th, 2012 at 4:04pm
 
Controversial Pesticide Linked to Bee Collapse

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/03/neonicotinoids-bee-collapse/

Quote:
A controversial type of pesticide linked to declining global bee populations appears to scramble bees’ sense of direction, making it hard for them to find home. Starved of foragers and the pollen they carry, colonies produce fewer queens, and eventually collapse.

The phenomenon is described in two new studies published March 29 in Science. While they don’t conclusively explain global bee declines, which almost certainly involve a combination of factors, they establish neonicotinoids as a prime suspect.

“It’s pretty damning,” said David Goulson, a bee biologist at Scotland’s University of Stirling. “It’s clear evidence that they’re likely to be having an effect on both honeybees and bumblebees.”

Neonicotinoids emerged in the mid-1990s as a relatively less-toxic alternative to human-damaging pesticides. They soon became wildly popular, and were the fastest-growing class of pesticides in modern history. Their effects on non-pest insects, however, were unknown.

In the mid-2000s, beekeepers in the United States and elsewhere started to report sharp and inexplicable declines in honeybee populations. Researchers called the phenomenon colony collapse disorder. It was also found in bumblebees, and in some regions now threatens to extirpate bees altogether.

Many possible causes were suggested, from viruses and mites to industrial beekeeping practices and climate change. Pesticides, in particular neonicotinoids, also came under scrutiny.

Leaked internal reports by the Environmental Protection Agency showed that industry-run studies used to demonstrate some neonicotinoids’ environmental safety were shoddy and unreliable. Other researchers found signs that neonicotinoids, while they didn’t kill bees outright, affected their ability to learn and navigate.

'Anything that makes bees even a little bit worse at navigating or learning could be a disaster.'
Those results came from laboratory situations, with no guarantee of real-world applicability, but they were troubling.

“Bees’ ability to navigate is very important. When they leave their nest, they fly miles to gather food. Anything that makes them even a little bit worse at navigating or learning could be a disaster in those circumstances,” said Goulson. “The research suggested effects on their learning ability, but it was all done in confined situations. What we and the French group did is something more natural.”

In the first study, led by biologist Mickaël Henry of INRA, a French agricultural research institute, free-roaming honeybees were tagged with RFID chips that allowed researchers to track their movements. When dosed with a neonicotinoid, bees were more than twice as likely as non-dosed controls to die outside their hives. They seemed to get lost.

When the researchers added their results to computer simulations of honeybee dynamics, the model populations crashed.

Penn State entomologist James Frazier, who was not involved in the study, called it “the best study to date” on neonicotinoids’ real-world effects on foraging.”

The result dovetailed with the findings of Goulson’s group, who exposed developing bumblebees to varying neonicotinoid levels and set them loose to forage in an enclosed field. Measured after six weeks of growth, pesticide-dosed colonies were stunted, weighing about 10 percent less and producing 85 percent fewer queens.

“Nests have annual cycles. They start with a single queen, and the nest grows through the season. If it doesn’t get big enough, it doesn’t have the resources to pour into rearing queens,” Goulson said. “The French study shows that exposure to neonicotinoids make honeybees less likely to find their nest. That’s likely the mechanism that led to our nests growing more slowly.”

However, biologist Jerry Bromenshenk of the University of Montana was critical of the results. Goulson’s results were interesting but the researchers weren’t careful enough in verifying the doses given to their bees, and Henry’s group administered an unrealistically high dose, said Bromenshenk.

The latter’s dosing “is not what I would consider to be a field-relevant, low dose,” wrote Bromenshenk in an email, citing another recent study that used RFIDs to track bees given what he considers a more realistic dose. “At truly field representative, sublethal doses — no effect,” Bromenshenk wrote.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2012/03/beequeens.jpg
Quote:
A comparison of bee queen production in colonies treated (middle, right) and untreated (left) with a neonicotinoid pesticide. Image: Whitehorn et al./Science


Both Goulson and Mace Vaughn, pollinator program director at the Xerces Society, an invertebrate conservation group, said neonicotinoids won’t be the only cause of colony collapse disorder.

“If it was as simple as that, the answer would have been discovered a long time ago,” said Goulson. “I’m sure it’s a combination of things. I’m sure that disease is a part of it, and maybe the two interact.” He noted a study in which honeybees exposed to neonicotinoids were especially vulnerable to a common bee parasite. Another study found that neonicotinoids dramatically increase the toxicity of fungicides.

Vaughn raised the issue of industrial-scale beekeeping practices, which have also been linked to bee declines. “We’ve potentially created a situation where behavioral impacts, compounded with a lack of genetic diversity and the food they eat, results in something like colony collapse disorder,” he said.

“My only caution is that farmers use neonicotinoids for a reason,” said Goulson. “If they were banned, farmers would have to use something else. The question is, what would that be? Would it be better? Would it also have harmful effects?”

While it’s unlikely that neonicotinoids will be banned outright in the United States, where they’re now used on more than 100 million crop acres and an unknown area of home gardens and urban vegetation, Vaughn said they could be used differently.

“I would call for a ban on their use without a demonstrated pest threat. If you have corn rootworm, and need to address that, then use neonicotinoid-coated seeds,” he said. “But if it’s a vague threat that you haven’t identified, you shouldn’t be using them. Maybe it makes you a few bucks, and certainly makes the seed companies a lot of money, but it’s potentially killing bees across the country.”

Heather Pilatic of the Pesticide Action Network recommended a return to pest management strategies used widely through the 1990s, when the rise of pesticide-treated seeds and genetically modified crops allowed farmers to change their growing strategies.

“When you plant the same crop, year after year, you’re creating the conditions for a pest infestation,” Pilatic said. “In the mid-1990s, we were doing a really good job of pest management with corn in particular. With the introduction of treated seeds, and in particular of genetically engineered corn, it all unraveled. But we know how to do it. We were doing it 20 years ago.”

Penn State’s Frazier said that the Environmental Protection Agency, which recently received a 1.25 million-signature-strong petition to ban neonicotinoids, is slowly becoming better at risk assessment, though the agency is still heavily influenced by chemical companies and opaque in its workings.

The fundamental problem isn’t neonicotinoids, but our society’s relationship to chemicals, said Frazier. “We’re making ourselves the guinea pigs,” he said. “I don’t think that’s what a rational society should be doing.”

Image: Jack Wolf/Flickr

Citations: “Neonicotinoid Pesticide Reduces Bumble Bee Colony Growth and Queen Production.” By Penelope R. Whitehorn, Stephanie O’Connor, Felix L. Wackers, Dave Goulson. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012.

“A Common Pesticide Decreases Foraging Success and Survival in Honey Bees.” By Mickaël Henry, Maxime Beguin, Fabrice Requier, Orianne Rollin, Jean‐François Odoux, Pierrick Aupinel, Jean Aptel, Sylvie Tchamitchian, Axel Decourtye. Science, Vol. 335 No. 6076, March 30, 2012.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #2 - Mar 30th, 2012 at 6:08pm
 
Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/monsantos-gmo-corn-linked_n_420365.html
Quote:
In a study released by the International Journal of Biological Sciences, analyzing the effects of genetically modified foods on mammalian health, researchers found that agricultural giant Monsanto's GM corn is linked to organ damage in rats.

According to the study, which was summarized by Rady Ananda at Food Freedom, "Three varieties of Monsanto's GM corn - Mon 863, insecticide-producing Mon 810, and Roundup® herbicide-absorbing NK 603 - were approved for consumption by US, European and several other national food safety authorities."

Monsanto gathered its own crude statistical data after conducting a 90-day study, even though chronic problems can rarely be found after 90 days, and concluded that the corn was safe for consumption. The stamp of approval may have been premature, however.

In the conclusion of the IJBS study, researchers wrote:

    "Effects were mostly concentrated in kidney and liver function, the two major diet detoxification organs, but in detail differed with each GM type. In addition, some effects on heart, adrenal, spleen and blood cells were also frequently noted. As there normally exists sex differences in liver and kidney metabolism, the highly statistically significant disturbances in the function of these organs, seen between male and female rats, cannot be dismissed as biologically insignificant as has been proposed by others. We therefore conclude that our data strongly suggests that these GM maize varieties induce a state of hepatorenal toxicity....These substances have never before been an integral part of the human or animal diet and therefore their health consequences for those who consume them, especially over long time periods are currently unknown."



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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #3 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 10:50am
 
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 30th, 2012 at 6:08pm:
Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/monsantos-gmo-corn-linked_n_420365.html
Quote:
In a study released by the International Journal of Biological Sciences, analyzing the effects of genetically modified foods on mammalian health, researchers found that agricultural giant Monsanto's GM corn is linked to organ damage in rats.

According to the study, which was summarized by Rady Ananda at Food Freedom, "Three varieties of Monsanto's GM corn - Mon 863, insecticide-producing Mon 810, and Roundup® herbicide-absorbing NK 603 - were approved for consumption by US, European and several other national food safety authorities."

Monsanto gathered its own crude statistical data after conducting a 90-day study, even though chronic problems can rarely be found after 90 days, and concluded that the corn was safe for consumption. The stamp of approval may have been premature, however.

In the conclusion of the IJBS study, researchers wrote:

    "Effects were mostly concentrated in kidney and liver function, the two major diet detoxification organs, but in detail differed with each GM type. In addition, some effects on heart, adrenal, spleen and blood cells were also frequently noted. As there normally exists sex differences in liver and kidney metabolism, the highly statistically significant disturbances in the function of these organs, seen between male and female rats, cannot be dismissed as biologically insignificant as has been proposed by others. We therefore conclude that our data strongly suggests that these GM maize varieties induce a state of hepatorenal toxicity....These substances have never before been an integral part of the human or animal diet and therefore their health consequences for those who consume them, especially over long time periods are currently unknown."



One thing that Australia does well is careful vetting of GM crops. Apart from canola, there is no other GM food crop grown in Australia as far as I know, and Canola is made into oil, which has practically nil genetic content. 

By the way, the argument about bees and GM crops is only partly true. GM crops actually avoid the need for crop dusting and spraying because they produce their own pesticide.  Crop dusting and spraying (particularly aerial spraying) is a lot worse than that. Any argument that a GM crop producing pesticide or herbicide causes organ damage should be read in conjunction with the fact that the pesticides themselves do exactly the same, except that it's ten times worse. (Well, hello - this is not new news - pesticides kill), and the extent of the problem with pesticides in non GM crops is much greater.

Virtually all non-GM crops are sprayed with pesticide. Organic crops are in a tiny minority.

If you want to go 100% organic, you won't achieve anything like the same yields so we need to consider the effects on the human population worldwide.

Just a tip: Euthanasia is much kinder than death by starvation, but it's unlikely that you'd be able to manufacture enough bullets to keep up with demand..
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #4 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 11:13am
 
Muso,
Quote:
One thing that Australia does well is careful vetting of GM crops. Apart from canola, there is no other GM food crop grown in Australia as far as I know, and Canola is made into oil, which has practically nil genetic content. 
Firstly you will find that products from the canola grown go into a huge percentage of our processed foods.
Likewise almost all processed foods on your supermarket shelve WILL contain some GMO products.

Quote:
By the way, the argument about bees and GM crops is only partly true. GM crops actually avoid the need for crop dusting and spraying because they produce their own pesticide.  Crop dusting and spraying (particularly aerial spraying) is a lot worse than that. Any argument that a GM crop producing pesticide or herbicide causes organ damage should be read in conjunction with the fact that the pesticides themselves do exactly the same, except that it's ten times worse. (Well, hello - this is not new news - pesticides kill), and the extent of the problem with pesticides in non GM crops is much greater.

This is only one part true because while some GMO's produce their own pesticide a huge majority are designed to resist pesticide so that you can spray it and kill weeds and not your crop. You will find that Monsanto the largest GM producer actually owns and produces the largest brands of pesticieds, so it would be horrible business for them to do what you are saying. A majority of there profit comes from the sale of round up.
The resisting of pesticide does not mean that the plant does not absorb the dangerous chemicals tho.

Quote:
If you want to go 100% organic, you won't achieve anything like the same yields so we need to consider the effects on the human population worldwide.

This is simply not true, and on a large timescale GMO will actually be more damaging to our food supply because it will ruin the gentic structure or natural stains which will make it impossible for people to grow their own food unless it is GMO, which is controlled by a huge monopoly. Essentially the world food supply will be controlled by one corporation which has already proven itself to be the definition of the word evil, and who clearly do not care about the wellbeing of people.

Quote:
Just a tip: Euthanasia is much kinder than death by starvation, but it's unlikely that you'd be able to manufacture enough bullets to keep up with demand..
GMO is not going to stop starvation.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #5 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 1:42pm
 
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 31st, 2012 at 11:13am:
Muso,
Quote:
One thing that Australia does well is careful vetting of GM crops. Apart from canola, there is no other GM food crop grown in Australia as far as I know, and Canola is made into oil, which has practically nil genetic content. 
Firstly you will find that products from the canola grown go into a huge percentage of our processed foods.
Likewise almost all processed foods on your supermarket shelve WILL contain some GMO products.


You mean that they contain oil. That's the only product that comes from canola. As previously noted, these oils are just long chain fatty acids.  A wide range of plants produce oils. Oil doesn't contain genetic material.  There is an issue regarding Erucic acid, but I'll let you research that yourself. It's a problem with wild varieties as opposed to cultivars.

Quote:
This is only one part true because while some GMO's produce their own pesticide a huge majority are designed to resist pesticide so that you can spray it and kill weeds and not your crop. You will find that Monsanto the largest GM producer actually owns and produces the largest brands of pesticieds, so it would be horrible business for them to do what you are saying. A majority of there profit comes from the sale of round up.
The resisting of pesticide does not mean that the plant does not absorb the dangerous chemicals tho.

Strictly speaking, that only refers to herbicide resistance, and the only one I'm aware of is glyphosate (and glufosinate - the same applies). I don't know if you know the facts about glyphosate, but it's pretty innocuous stuff, and it breaks down so quickly that you can make a planting of any crop within a couple of weeks of application.  A lot of these arguments about Monsanto spring from the globalisation conspirators.  Pesticides are absorbed by plants regardless of whether they are sprayed or produced biologically, with the difference that the quantities are much greater when sprayed.  By the way most of the pesticides (that act against insects) are anti-cholinesterase type pesticides.  Their toxicity is acute. They are in the same family as nerve gases. The less we ingest the better, so the GM crop has advantages in that respect.

With regards brands, there are many brands that market the same basic ingredients. The brand is irrelevant. For example, you can buy glyphosate from a wide range of suppliers. It doesn't need to carry the brand name "Roundup". The same goes for pesticides.

Quote:
Quote:
If you want to go 100% organic, you won't achieve anything like the same yields so we need to consider the effects on the human population worldwide.


This is simply not true, and on a large timescale GMO will actually be more damaging to our food supply because it will ruin the gentic structure or natural stains which will make it impossible for people to grow their own food unless it is GMO, which is controlled by a huge monopoly. Essentially the world food supply will be controlled by one corporation which has already proven itself to be the definition of the word evil, and who clearly do not care about the wellbeing of people.


Well it has been used for something like 30 years, and the best that anybody has come up with is a study that states that pesticides are harmful. The  issues related to drift are minimal by the fact that these crops are sterile (including the pollen)

My point regarding starvation related to crops grown without pesticide. It comes down to three possibilities :

1. You grow organically worldwide  (not just in the Developed world where people can afford it) Result- Yields are diminished. The result is starvation. I can look up the yields for organic crops if you like. Extrapolate worldwide and the only possible result is catastrophe.

2. You grow conventional crops and spray with pesticides (and herbicides pre-emergence). The pesticide exposure is much greater. Greater exposure provides greater health risks. Pre-emergence herbicides reduce yields to non resistant crops.  (but nobody starves)

3. You grow GM pesticide producing crops and don't need to spray.  Result - Reduced exposure to pesticides. The effects of the pesticides are the only detrimental effects of any magnitude reported in GM crops to date in the 30 years they have been in use in the US. 3(b) You grow glyphosate resistant GM crops. No additional consequence.    (again, nobody starves)

So I've clarified the position, and I hope you can see that I was specifically not arguing that GM crops will reduce starvation.

Some of the anti-GM mentality comes from a hatred of corporations.

My own observation is that the economical effects of GM crops in poorer countries is probably the worst consequence of their use.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #6 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 3:33pm
 
Quote:
You mean that they contain oil. That's the only product that comes from canola. As previously noted, these oils are just long chain fatty acids.  A wide range of plants produce oils. Oil doesn't contain genetic material.  There is an issue regarding Erucic acid, but I'll let you research that yourself. It's a problem with wild varieties as opposed to cultivars.

Yes, I know what oils are.
There are many problems that come from the cultivation of GM canola.
GM has removed the genome which let the canola created erucic acid or something, but this has put at risk the stablilty of canola as a species.
Quote:
Strictly speaking, that only refers to herbicide resistance, and the only one I'm aware of is glyphosate (and glufosinate - the same applies). I don't know if you know the facts about glyphosate, but it's pretty innocuous stuff, and it breaks down so quickly that you can make a planting of any crop within a couple of weeks of application.  A lot of these arguments about Monsanto spring from the globalisation conspirators.  Pesticides are absorbed by plants regardless of whether they are sprayed or produced biologically, with the difference that the quantities are much greater when sprayed.  By the way most of the pesticides (that act against insects) are anti-cholinesterase type pesticides.  Their toxicity is acute. They are in the same family as nerve gases. The less we ingest the better, so the GM crop has advantages in that respect.

With regards brands, there are many brands that market the same basic ingredients. The brand is irrelevant. For example, you can buy glyphosate from a wide range of suppliers. It doesn't need to carry the brand name "Roundup". The same goes for pesticides.

GMO strands are designed to be resistant to a wide range of chemicals. While glyphosate is the main active ingredient in round up and similar pesticides they do have many other chemicals and substances which are dangerous to plants, the environment and people.
With just a quick search this is what I could find:
Quote:
Some Important Facts You Should Know
•      Glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, is the third most commonly-reported cause of pesticide illness among agricultural workers in California.
•      Glyphosate is the most commonly reported cause of pesticide illness among landscape maintenance workers in California.
•      The surfactant ingredient in Roundup is more acutely toxic than glyphosate itself and the combination of the two is yet more toxic.
•      Glyphosate is suspected of causing genetic damage.
•      Glyphosate is acutely toxic to fish and birds and can kill beneficial insects and soil organisms that maintain ecological balance.
•      Laboratory studies have identified adverse effects of glyphosate-containing products in all standard categories of toxicological testing.
•      Glyphosate residues in soil can persist over a year.
•      Glyphosate residues has been found in strawberries, wild blueberries and raspberries, lettuce, carrots and barley.
•      Glyphosate has been measured 1,300 - 2,600 feet away from its application site.
•      This year Monsanto, manufacturer of Roundup, agreed with the New York Attorney General's office to discontinue their use of the terms "biodegradable" and "environmentally friendly" in ads promoting glyphosate-based products, including Roundup.

Effective and Safe Alternatives Exist!
For more information, contact the Ecology Center.
Sources:
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 1: Toxicology
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.3:14 -20
Cox, Caroline. 1995. Glyphosate, Pt. 2: Human Exposure and Ecological Effects
Journal of Pesticide Reform Vol.15, No.4:14-19
Moses,Marion. 1995. Designer Poisons

Not nice stuff.
Breaking down doesn’t mean it becomes non dangerous, it just means it is passed into the soil and plants in this case.

Sorry but the arguments against Monsanto and GMO are based on hard scientific fact.
The fact they are a corporation is irrelevant, although it does add many more problems to the list of thousands non corporation related.
Problem is GMO and pesticides are found to be extremely dangerous even in much lower doses then are produced biologically by plants or sprayed in pesticide. These dangers range from organ damage to genetic mutation and permanent damage of DNA.

The brand is not irrelevant; Monsanto GMO crops and Round Up are the biggest thing on the market by a huge amount. Their GMO is specifically tailored for Round Up, giving them a huge monopoly.
I really don’t feel I should need to explain the dangers of letting one group have a monopoly over food and agriculture as a whole.
Quote:
Well it has been used for something like 30 years, and the best that anybody has come up with is a study that states that pesticides are harmful. The  issues related to drift are minimal by the fact that these crops are sterile (including the pollen)

Muso there are literally thousands of studies, thousands of scientists, and a million reasons while all this is bad.
The problems are in no way minimal and if you think they are you clearly haven’t read many studies or opinions on the issue.
Quote:
My point regarding starvation related to crops grown without pesticide. It comes down to three possibilities :

1. You grow organically worldwide  (not just in the Developed world where people can afford it) Result- Yields are diminished. The result is starvation. I can look up the yields for organic crops if you like. Extrapolate worldwide and the only possible result is catastrophe.

2. You grow conventional crops and spray with pesticides (and herbicides pre-emergence). The pesticide exposure is much greater. Greater exposure provides greater health risks. Pre-emergence herbicides reduce yields to non resistant crops.  (but nobody starves)

3. You grow GM pesticide producing crops and don't need to spray.  Result - Reduced exposure to pesticides. The effects of the pesticides are the only detrimental effects of any magnitude reported in GM crops to date in the 30 years they have been in use in the US. 3(b) You grow glyphosate resistant GM crops. No additional consequence.    (again, nobody starves)

So I've clarified the position, and I hope you can see that I was specifically not arguing that GM crops will reduce starvation.
It is perfectly viable to supply the world with food without GMO and I really think you are going to need to prove that we cant here.
GM crops may produce better yields for a short amount of time but before long they will have caused much more damage and starvation then what would happen without them.
There is no reduced exposure to pesticides with GM crops, I don’t know where you are getting that idea from.
There is consequence.
Quote:
Some of the anti-GM mentality comes from a hatred of corporations.

This is just ridiculous.
And even if it was true it still does not justify any of what you are saying.
Monsanto create hatred of corporations.
Why would you want one corporation having complete monopoly food anyway? Is that really what you want?
Quote:
My own observation is that the economical effects of GM crops in poorer countries is probably the worst consequence of their use.
Just another reason but not the worst.

You really need to look more into this.
Read and watch all you can.
You either don’t understand the ramifications or don’t know enough.

I think GM is a good technology and needs to be expanded and learnt.
BUT.
This does not mean that it should have been released, or something that should be allowed to be patented.
This is something which requires possibly centuries of investigation, research and testing before it goes to the production scale we see it at now.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #7 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 6:55pm
 
Breaking:

FDA Deletes 1 Million Signatures for GMO Labeling Campaign

http://naturalsociety.com/fda-deletes-1-million-signatures-for-gmo-labeling-camp...

Quote:
The ‘Just Label It” campaign has gotten more signatures than any campaign in history for the labeling of genetically modified foods. Since October of 2011, the campaign has received over 900,000 signatures, with 55 politicians joining in on the movement. So what’s the problem here?

Evidently, the FDA counts the amount of signatures not by how many people signed, but how many different individual letters are brought to it. To the FDA, even tens of thousands of signatures presented on a single petition are counted as – you guessed it – a single comment. This is how, despite over a million supporters being gathered by the petition, the FDA concluded a count of only 394.

    “This is an election year and there are more than a million people who say this is important to them. This is petition has nothing to do with whether or genetically modified foods are dangerous. We don’t label dangerous foods, we take them off the shelves. This petition is about a the citizens’ right to know what they are eating and whether or not these foods represent a novel change.” said Andrew Kimbrell an attorney for the Center for Food Safety, one of the partner groups on the Just Label It campaign.


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bobbythefap1
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #8 - Mar 31st, 2012 at 7:11pm
 
GM food toxins found in the blood of 93% of unborn babies

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1388888/GM-food-toxins-blood-93-unborn...

Quote:
Toxins implanted into GM food crops to kill pests are reaching the bloodstreams of women and unborn babies, alarming research has revealed.

A landmark study found 93 per cent of blood samples taken from pregnant women and 80 per cent from umbilical cords tested positive for traces of the chemicals.

Millions of acres in North and South America are planted with GM corn containing the toxins, which is fed in vast quantities to farm livestock around the world – including Britain.

However, it is now clear the  toxins designed to kill crop pests are reaching humans and babies in the womb – apparently through food.

It is not known what, if any, harm this causes but there is speculation it could lead to allergies, miscarriage, abnormalities or even cancer.

To date the industry has always argued that if these toxins were eaten by animals or humans they would be destroyed in the gut and pass out of the body, thus causing no harm.

Food safety authorities in Britain and Europe have accepted these assurances on the basis that GM crops are effectively no different to those produced using conventional methods.


Read more at the link
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #9 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 12:14pm
 
You really need to be more discriminating about your sources. Glyphosate causes genetic damage? Good grief, It must be among the few non-radioactive substances on earth to do that.

Anyway, I was talking about Australia. Here, the only GM crop that's actually eaten is canola, and in that case it's just the oil.  The oil from GM canola is not significantly different from non-GM canola.

I don't have time to talk about the wetting agents right now, but basically they are only skin irritants when at high concentration.  There are plenty of similar substances that cause similar levels of irritation, including most disinfectants at high concentration.  There are as many hyped up reports about GM foods as there are about nuclear power. They are almost all blown out of proportion by advocates and activists.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #10 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 2:06pm
 
Muso there is enough information and scientific study around to show there is a danger with glypohsate.
Certainly not something we should be risking on the whim of what the people selling it tell us.
Either way more testing is needed and it should not have been put on the market without it.
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33138

Quote:
Anyway, I was talking about Australia. Here, the only GM crop that's actually eaten is canola, and in that case it's just the oil.  The oil from GM canola is not significantly different from non-GM canola.

The problem with canola is the effect it has on the environment and the natural species itself. Likewise it helps to mutate other plants such as weeds when cross pollinated etc..
Actually the oil is different in that it is genetically inhibited to not produce a certain chemical.

Please don’t tell me you believe the whole "substantially equivalent" crap.

Quote:
I don't have time to talk about the wetting agents right now, but basically they are only skin irritants when at high concentration.  There are plenty of similar substances that cause similar levels of irritation, including most disinfectants at high concentration.  There are as many hyped up reports about GM foods as there are about nuclear power. They are almost all blown out of proportion by advocates and activists.

According to what?
Yes these things are in other product but not ones we eat.
There are also thousands upon thousands of scientific studies that prove GM is no good.

All you have posted is opinion.
While I have posted a wealth of information that you clearly cannot overcome.
You have yet to respond to all of the serious information I have posted about.
Stating that it’s just anti corporate wack jobs, while clearly the majority of scientists not payed off disagree with you.
Not good enough Muso,
Let’s start hearing some facts and not just opinion.
Let’s see you try and respond to all of the studies I have posted on this thread.

You got nothing.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #11 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 3:45pm
 
OK, it's based on 20 years experience in hazardous materials. My BS meter is going off right left and centre, especially when I read about oil being genetically inhibited and glyphosate adjuvants causing genetic harm.  These statements are to me clearly nonsensical.

In toxicological studies, we need to consider the route of exposure and the concentration among other things. The US EPA, who have the most stringent limitations anywhere (except that they are often ignored in the US) puts the toxicity of Glyphosate mixtures at something like 4000mg/kg. (very low)

Here is another example of nonsense: 
http://www.naturalnews.com/034504_glyphosate_groundwater_contamination.html

That site calls Glyphosate a GMO herbicide. That in itself is another nonsense statement. It has actually been used for something like 50 years, long before GMO's. 

You're talking about Glyphosate as if it has some inherent connection with GMO's. No GMO's produce Glyphosate. They are resistant to glyphosate, like many weed species.

There is a lot of hype about glyphosate. What you should really be worrying about is OC and OP Pesticides.

By the way, you seem to be a good thinker in general.  I just think you've gone off the rails on this particular issue by believing activists. OK, not everything Monsanto says is correct either, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

What I'm saying is that some of these people are cherry picking. They seize on a property of a particular substance, but fail to contextualise that in terms of actual exposure.  It's also clear from some of the language used, that they don't understand the basics.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #12 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:23pm
 
Upon further investigation the active ingredient in round up is actually Isopropylamine salt of glyphosate.
Which if you research is very dangerous.
It is not the oil that is GM it is the canola plant.

I don’t get what is nonsense about it being in the groundwater.
It is a substance which seeps into the ground.
Plus it gets washed into every above ground water system.

The site calling it a pesticide is really just clarifying that they are talking about it in regards to pesticides so someone doesn’t get confused by its other uses, they need to do this.

I’m not stating they have a connection, but that they are part of a web of problems in the industry.

Quote:
By the way, you seem to be a good thinker in general.  I just think you've gone off the rails on this particular issue by believing activists. OK, not everything Monsanto says is correct either, but the truth is somewhere in the middle. 
Im sorry Muso but my opinion is based on fact and research.

I have nothing against GMO in principle, which is something someone who is just following the trend would not say.
I just believe that it should have been researched for a long time before it was released on such a large scale.
Monsanto is buggered up and that is a fact, they have and are putting many lives at risks if not the future our species, because the food supply is obviously that important.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that some of these people are cherry picking. They seize on a property of a particular substance, but fail to contextualise that in terms of actual exposure.  It's also clear from some of the language used, that they don't understand the basics.

This is an issue that you can come at from a million different angles.
There are a million different problems.
And that clearly does work to the biotech corporation’s advantage.
I wouldn’t say people are cherry picking but working as a society to paint a big picture from many different brush strokes.

In terms of exposure the level is high and that is not really a point of argument even by Monsanto and the like.

Seems silly to say they don’t know anything..
We both know there are thousands of scientists in the field against it and for good reason
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #13 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm
 
whats the big issue with GM crops anyway people have been genetically modifying their crops through planned cultivation for thousands of years.

the bananas youre eatin now aint the same bananas that people were pickin off trees in africa (or where ever they came from) in the paleolithic era.
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Re: Pesticides tied to decline in bee population
Reply #14 - Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:27pm
 
barnaby joe wrote on Apr 1st, 2012 at 6:24pm:
whats the big issue with GM crops anyway people have been genetically modifying their crops through planned cultivation for thousands of years.

the bananas youre eatin now aint the same bananas that people were pickin off trees in africa in the paleolithic era.

You will find there is a big difference.
The genetic modification of old was a gradual and natural process.
Today the methods put at risk the stability of species of plants.
By destroying our natural species it is possible that biotech corporations will gain a monopoly of the food industry for the entire world.

Have a look at the links I have posted.
Do some of your own research.
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