Australian Politics Forum - Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit

Sir lastnail

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #120 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 5:30pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 3:36pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 3:03pm:

You need to stop cherry picking from your own bible because it specifically states the following:-

Quote:

Psalm 139:16
New Living Translation (NLT)
16 You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

Which can only mean one thing and that god plans all murders, rapes, wars and abortions and that means the humans are blameless in these acts no matter how evil simply because god planned it all Wink

LOL

I'm a [flawed] human being.

And i understand that a cat will stalk and hunt a mouse, ....if the cat sees the mouse.

I know this, because i know something of the nature of a cat.

Knowing this, is not 'magic'.

Regards your assertion [i.e. god plans all murders, rapes, wars, etc], God knows our nature. [ ...better than we do!]

And then there is the 'element' and nature of time.

Perhaps God can travel along time, just like we humans can travel back and forth along a highway.

We humans, do not [really] know what time is.

Is time constant ?

Does it speed up, or slow down ?

And regards our own conduct, is God evil, because he allows us to have, and to express, our own free will ?

Consider.

How does a child learn ?

How can a child learn anything worthwhile [about life], if its parent will not allow the child to make its own mistakes ?

+++

IMO;
You want a God who will allow you to do everything that you wish to do, but will always rescue you, from the consequences of your bad choices.

You want a God who is only beneficial to your own interests, AS YOU PERCEIVE THEM.

The difference between people like yourself, and myself, is that i trust God [i trust his intent].

I know that God is just.

But conversely, i do not trust men.

Because being one, i know their nature too!

You are missing the point. Human beings have no control in the matter since their actions are predetermined as part of gods plan. If an all knowing god knows the future in advance then humans are powerless to change it no matter how bad their actions are ! Free will contradicts the property of an all knowing Omniscient god which has already determined the future in advance. There are many contradictions like this in the bible which is why people who preach it look and sound so stupid Cheesy

LOL

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit Reply #121 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car. truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house. now HE is a teller of fairytales.
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Sir lastnail

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #122 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car.

truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house.

now HE is a teller of fairytales.

so how is Jesus going ?? Have you seen him lately Cheesy

LOL

and I have never made those claims about myself. Unlike you I don't have to high note myself about being a water trainer, whatever the bugger that is Cheesy

LOL

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longweekend58

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #123 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:10pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car.

truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house.

now HE is a teller of fairytales.

so how is Jesus going ?? Have you seen him lately Cheesy

LOL

and I have never made those claims about myself. Unlike you I don't have to high note myself about being a water trainer, whatever the bugger that is Cheesy

LOL

your girlfriend booby tells us all about you and your successful business and your *inser mocking* 'luxury' car worth $50K!!! I wonder if booby has priced actual luxury cars in the lat ten years! and you yourselfe tells us about all your R&D except of course what it is or even in what area it is.

you are FULL of fairytales.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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bobbythefap1 Gold Member Offline Posts: 7026 Listen now to the rain	Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit Reply #124 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:15pm Suprised you have the gut to talk on this thread longy... No suprise your not talking to me tho, hmm still cant answer a question?
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Bobby.

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #125 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:30pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:10pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car.

truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house.

now HE is a teller of fairytales.

so how is Jesus going ?? Have you seen him lately Cheesy

LOL

and I have never made those claims about myself. Unlike you I don't have to high note myself about being a water trainer, whatever the bugger that is Cheesy

LOL

your girlfriend booby tells us all about you and your successful business and your *inser mocking* 'luxury' car worth $50K!!! I wonder if booby has priced actual luxury cars in the lat ten years! and you yourselfe tells us about all your R&D except of course what it is or even in what area it is.

you are FULL of fairytales.

Longweekend.
What has Nail's luxury car got to do with this thread?
LW - you always change the topic when confronted with the truth.
You must have learnt from JuLiar.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #126 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 8:00pm

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:10pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car.

truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house.

now HE is a teller of fairytales.

so how is Jesus going ?? Have you seen him lately Cheesy

LOL

and I have never made those claims about myself. Unlike you I don't have to high note myself about being a water trainer, whatever the bugger that is Cheesy

LOL

your girlfriend booby tells us all about you and your successful business and your *inser mocking* 'luxury' car worth $50K!!! I wonder if booby has priced actual luxury cars in the lat ten years! and you yourselfe tells us about all your R&D except of course what it is or even in what area it is.

you are FULL of fairytales.

it's funny how you hang on to bobby's every word but you won't believe the authorities word on climate change. You have such a simple mind. No wonder you have a paranormal friend called jesus Cheesy

LOL

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #127 - Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 8:01pm

Bobby. wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:30pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:10pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 7:02pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 6:49pm:

speaking of fairytales, lastnail is supposedly an international businessman driving a 'luxury' $50,000 car.

truth is he is a servo operator driving a 1992 holden and living in one room of a shared house.

now HE is a teller of fairytales.

so how is Jesus going ?? Have you seen him lately Cheesy

LOL

and I have never made those claims about myself. Unlike you I don't have to high note myself about being a water trainer, whatever the bugger that is Cheesy

LOL

your girlfriend booby tells us all about you and your successful business and your *inser mocking* 'luxury' car worth $50K!!! I wonder if booby has priced actual luxury cars in the lat ten years! and you yourselfe tells us about all your R&D except of course what it is or even in what area it is.

you are FULL of fairytales.

Longweekend.
What has Nail's luxury car got to do with this thread?
LW - you always change the topic when confronted with the truth.
You must have learnt from JuLiar.

it's because he's already lost the argument so he has to resort to fallacies Cheesy

LOL

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In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Loki

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #128 - Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 3:52pm

I'm an Atheist, but I do think religions have a place in human society beyond the average fairy tale. You can't stop humans from being different, and different people need different things and understand different things. Religion arose as a way to explain phenomena and morals that were new to a still evolving social animal, spirituality/religion allowed humans to philosophise beyond what they can see/feel/touch/eat etc.

While we've come beyond those early days of abstract thought (and now call it philosophy), religion has been with us every step of the way. Religious texts record history, major events, people who influenced others, and thinkers who expressed their points in allegory and stories (stories have always had power, bardic tradition and history has always been mixed together). Religion has also been the glue that bound many different groups of humans together to form stable societies where culture flourished (most ancient civilisations had major national religions).

The problem is that religious texts are often taken to literal extremes. Like all stories, they are open to interpretation and manipulation. Rather than focusing the blame on innocent believers who use their religion to temper their own behaviour, who find peace in a chaotic world through tradition, one should instead focus on those who interpret the texts in order to back up their bigotry and prejudice without the ability to see that they've hijacked the story.

There is a lot of power and money riding on religion, as well as pride and prejudices that are centuries old. To dismiss the whole complex subject by simply saying that all religious/spiritual people are gullible is the same as extremely religious people saying all non-believers lack morals. It's inflammatory, based on a narrow view of the world and people, and makes wild assumptions about someone you've never met.

People who accept any random scientific paper as truth can also be described as gullible, especially since most people don't bother checking up on whether the paper is peer-reviewed, from a reputable institution, is not 100 years old, and is part of a large body of evidence. It really depends on your point of view, what they are taking from the bible, and how far they take it.

I have no problem with people who say: "I'm Christian, and I believe Jesus lived, and I believe in his message to Christians and I will endeavour to be a good Christian." I only have problems with Christians who then go on to say: "To be a good Christian, I should also make sure everyone else obeys the bible regardless of whether they believe what I believe - gays go die."

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Johnsmith

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #129 - Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 4:10pm

Loki wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 3:52pm:

I'm an Atheist, but I do think religions have a place in human society beyond the average fairy tale. You can't stop humans from being different, and different people need different things and understand different things. Religion arose as a way to explain phenomena and morals that were new to a still evolving social animal, spirituality/religion allowed humans to philosophise beyond what they can see/feel/touch/eat etc.

While we've come beyond those early days of abstract thought (and now call it philosophy), religion has been with us every step of the way. Religious texts record history, major events, people who influenced others, and thinkers who expressed their points in allegory and stories (stories have always had power, bardic tradition and history has always been mixed together). Religion has also been the glue that bound many different groups of humans together to form stable societies where culture flourished (most ancient civilisations had major national religions).

The problem is that religious texts are often taken to literal extremes. Like all stories, they are open to interpretation and manipulation. Rather than focusing the blame on innocent believers who use their religion to temper their own behaviour, who find peace in a chaotic world through tradition, one should instead focus on those who interpret the texts in order to back up their bigotry and prejudice without the ability to see that they've hijacked the story.

There is a lot of power and money riding on religion, as well as pride and prejudices that are centuries old. To dismiss the whole complex subject by simply saying that all religious/spiritual people are gullible is the same as extremely religious people saying all non-believers lack morals. It's inflammatory, based on a narrow view of the world and people, and makes wild assumptions about someone you've never met.

People who accept any random scientific paper as truth can also be described as gullible, especially since most people don't bother checking up on whether the paper is peer-reviewed, from a reputable institution, is not 100 years old, and is part of a large body of evidence. It really depends on your point of view, what they are taking from the bible, and how far they take it.

I have no problem with people who say: "I'm Christian, and I believe Jesus lived, and I believe in his message to Christians and I will endeavour to be a good Christian." I only have problems with Christians who then go on to say: "To be a good Christian, I should also make sure everyone else obeys the bible regardless of whether they believe what I believe - gays go die."

I have to disagree with your views on how religion arose. I think it arose as a way to control the masses. By giving them something they couldn't disprove and were to afraid to object too.

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muso

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #130 - Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 4:15pm

Loki wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 3:52pm:

I'm an Atheist, but I do think religions have a place in human society beyond the average fairy tale. You can't stop humans from being different, and different people need different things and understand different things. Religion arose as a way to explain phenomena and morals that were new to a still evolving social animal, spirituality/religion allowed humans to philosophise beyond what they can see/feel/touch/eat etc.

While we've come beyond those early days of abstract thought (and now call it philosophy), religion has been with us every step of the way. Religious texts record history, major events, people who influenced others, and thinkers who expressed their points in allegory and stories (stories have always had power, bardic tradition and history has always been mixed together). Religion has also been the glue that bound many different groups of humans together to form stable societies where culture flourished (most ancient civilisations had major national religions).

The problem is that religious texts are often taken to literal extremes. Like all stories, they are open to interpretation and manipulation. Rather than focusing the blame on innocent believers who use their religion to temper their own behaviour, who find peace in a chaotic world through tradition, one should instead focus on those who interpret the texts in order to back up their bigotry and prejudice without the ability to see that they've hijacked the story.

There is a lot of power and money riding on religion, as well as pride and prejudices that are centuries old. To dismiss the whole complex subject by simply saying that all religious/spiritual people are gullible is the same as extremely religious people saying all non-believers lack morals. It's inflammatory, based on a narrow view of the world and people, and makes wild assumptions about someone you've never met.

People who accept any random scientific paper as truth can also be described as gullible, especially since most people don't bother checking up on whether the paper is peer-reviewed, from a reputable institution, is not 100 years old, and is part of a large body of evidence. It really depends on your point of view, what they are taking from the bible, and how far they take it.

I have no problem with people who say: "I'm Christian, and I believe Jesus lived, and I believe in his message to Christians and I will endeavour to be a good Christian." I only have problems with Christians who then go on to say: "To be a good Christian, I should also make sure everyone else obeys the bible regardless of whether they believe what I believe - gays go die."

That just about sums up where I stand, except that I'm an atheistic theist.

However the atheistic part and the theist part refer to different definitions of god. Grin

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Loki

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #131 - Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 5:30pm

Johnsmith wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2012 at 4:10pm:

I have to disagree with your views on how religion arose. I think it arose as a way to control the masses. By giving them something they couldn't disprove and were to afraid to object too.

And we can totally disagree. I generally believe that religions arise as a way to see a path forward before political philosophy and moral philosophy and science parted ways. I also believe that it played a very important role in bringing groups of people together (forming a society), which does support a 'controlling' view. It is not inherently true however that when people who believe similar things gather it automatically turns the belief into a system of control, I think it takes people to deliberately pervert and exploit systems like this.

Most religious texts are focused on an individual (it's a personal message) rather than a hierarchy. While the hierarchy (kings, governments) exploit the message, it is the personal message that seems to touch believers - the bible/koran speaks to THEM. Leaders have been known historically to change religion and religious laws to suit themselves (pharaohs are a good example), but the rise of the religion is usually small, from niche groups and among the common people, and not a grandiose vision that sweeps a nation from top to bottom.

By the time Christianity found the British, it was already no longer a religious philosophy, but a rule book, it was already political (European history is full of this) because money, property and power was tied up in the church. The humblest beginnings of religion, even if it had the best intentions in mind - to get everyone to act as a good person in the context of the times - will become corrupt. Even the most modern/progressive religious philosophy will become dated and thus require new interpretations.

I admit I base my views on the history of religions as they travel and spread, less about their immediate effect on the microsociety where they first arise. It is almost impossible now to know whether the earliest 'prophets' were trying to make sense of chaos and bring order or trying to gain personal power.

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Yadda

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #132 - Apr 4^th, 2012 at 11:56am

NBNMyths wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 4:26pm:

Let me give you an example. A close relative of mine is an absolutely devout Christian. Lives her life entirely focussed around God and the Bible. She has been this way all her life. Never taken drugs, doesn't even drink or smoke. Never "lived in Sin", goes to Church every Sunday, cooks, cleans, does volunteer work for the church, gives stuff away. Been overseas as a missionary. etc etc. You get the idea.

They have 5 children, and has had 4 miscarriages along the way. She has one chronically ill child. Lost their house when their business went under, because they were ripped off by the person they bought it from (who is laughing all the way to the bank). Hubby works 6 days a week, and spends the 7th helping to run their local church.

Where is the wickedness that caused God to deliver them this adversity?

NBNMyths,

I am sorry for the circumstances that you relate, that your relative finds herself in.

Can i explain it ?

No.

Is there an 'explanation' ?

I would assume that yes, there is a reason for her and her family's circumstances.

Maybe, their path, is the path that God has chosen for them.

Or maybe, their path [the path they have chosen], is the path they have [inadvertently] chosen for themselves.

How to change their circumstances ?

They should pray to God, and ask him to explain their hardships, and ask him to rescue them, from their hardships.

1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #133 - Apr 4^th, 2012 at 12:16pm

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 5:30pm:

Yadda wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 3:36pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2012 at 3:03pm:

You need to stop cherry picking from your own bible because it specifically states the following:-

Quote:

Psalm 139:16
New Living Translation (NLT)
16 You saw me before I was born.
Every day of my life was recorded in your book.
Every moment was laid out
before a single day had passed.

Which can only mean one thing and that god plans all murders, rapes, wars and abortions and that means the humans are blameless in these acts no matter how evil simply because god planned it all Wink

LOL

I'm a [flawed] human being.

And i understand that a cat will stalk and hunt a mouse, ....if the cat sees the mouse.

I know this, because i know something of the nature of a cat.

Knowing this, is not 'magic'.

Regards your assertion [i.e. god plans all murders, rapes, wars, etc], God knows our nature. [ ...better than we do!]

And then there is the 'element' and nature of time.

Perhaps God can travel along time, just like we humans can travel back and forth along a highway.

We humans, do not [really] know what time is.

Is time constant ?

Does it speed up, or slow down ?

And regards our own conduct, is God evil, because he allows us to have, and to express, our own free will ?

Consider.

How does a child learn ?

How can a child learn anything worthwhile [about life], if its parent will not allow the child to make its own mistakes ?

+++

IMO;
You want a God who will allow you to do everything that you wish to do, but will always rescue you, from the consequences of your bad choices.

You want a God who is only beneficial to your own interests, AS YOU PERCEIVE THEM.

The difference between people like yourself, and myself, is that i trust God [i trust his intent].

I know that God is just.

But conversely, i do not trust men.

Because being one, i know their nature too!

You are missing the point. Human beings have no control in the matter since their actions are predetermined as part of gods plan. If an all knowing god knows the future in advance then humans are powerless to change it no matter how bad their actions are ! Free will contradicts the property of an all knowing Omniscient god which has already determined the future in advance. There are many contradictions like this in the bible which is why people who preach it look and sound so stupid Cheesy

LOL

nail,

What you state, is untrue.

Dictionary;
automaton = =
1 a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being.
2 a machine which performs a function according to a set of coded instructions.

nail,

What you are stating, proposing is that we humans, are automaton's.

And, that none of us, have, or can make choices.

That is not true.

It is true, that this world tends to try to, compel us, to act in a certain way.

But the choice in how we act in this world, is always our own.

e.g.
Many people in this world, live in poverty.
But many of those poor people do not choose to rob others [they choose not to be criminals].

Whereas, some of the wealthiest people on the planet, will lie and cheat, and rob, to gain even more wealth for themselves.

Why so ?

IMO, these type of people, are the 'automatons'.

Yes, they are wicked people, and no, they cannot 'help' themselves.

+++

Psalms 73:6
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Do people who believes fairy tales have credibilit
Reply #134 - Apr 4^th, 2012 at 6:12pm

Yadda wrote on Apr 4^th, 2012 at 12:16pm:

nail,

What you state, is untrue.

Dictionary;
automaton = =
1 a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being.
2 a machine which performs a function according to a set of coded instructions.

nail,

What you are stating, proposing is that we humans, are automaton's.

And, that none of us, have, or can make choices.

That is not true.

It is true, that this world tends to try to, compel us, to act in a certain way.

But the choice in how we act in this world, is always our own.

e.g.
Many people in this world, live in poverty.
But many of those poor people do not choose to rob others [they choose not to be criminals].

Whereas, some of the wealthiest people on the planet, will lie and cheat, and rob, to gain even more wealth for themselves.

Why so ?

IMO, these type of people, are the 'automatons'.

Yes, they are wicked people, and no, they cannot 'help' themselves.

+++

Psalms 73:6
Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them as a garment.
7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish.
8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak loftily.
9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh through the earth.
10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung out to them.
11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High?
12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in riches.

NO YOU ARE WRONG !!

Quote:

om·nis·cient [om-nish-uhnt] Show IPA
adjective
1.
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

God knows the future so it is not possible for humans to change it so therefore there is no free will !!

We are all part of gods plan !!

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2012 at 7:26pm by Sir lastnail »

In August 2021, Newcastle Coroner Karen Dilks recorded that Lisa Shaw had died “due to complications of an AstraZeneca COVID vaccination”.

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Poll
Question: Does an adult who believes in fairy tales have credibility?
* This poll has now closed *
Yes 5 (33.3%) No 10 (66.7%) Total votes: 15 « Created by: bobbythefap1 on: Mar 24^th, 2012 at 3:48pm »