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The End of Academic Freedom (Read 17379 times)
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #45 - May 17th, 2013 at 5:41pm
 
Big Donger wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 10:24am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 12th, 2013 at 1:45pm:
I wouldn't call that trendyism. I have read histories that explain the interactions between Aboriginals and the early settlers. These are actually quite interesting. The key word here is "explain," not moralise.


Darren Curnoe, the author of the study you mention, did explain - in his findings. Read the linked abstract - nothing moralistic there. Your quote is an interview with him.

The petty rivalry and bigotry among Europeans is profound. Darren Curnoe is pointing out the relevance of his findings - that there is no genetic difference between Europeans.

Likewise, the Human Genome Project have found no genes that cause race. They've found genetic propensities towards diseases which are more prevalent within some races, but they've discovered no genes for race itself.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/human-genome-project-announces-race-does-not-exist

For a more in-depth discussion:

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/ogandy/C45405%20resources/McCann%20race%20human%20genome.pdf

This is science, not moralizing. The question, from a scientific point of view, is how we can conceptualize a biological phenomenon such as race, when there is no biological evidence for it. Cultural, sure, but not biological.

If you're after hard science, this is what you'll get. The moralizing is just an add-on. Do with this information what you will.


Did anyone ever think there was a single gene for 'race'?   Undecided  Sounds like a strawman to me.

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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #46 - May 17th, 2013 at 5:52pm
 
races are characterised by the patterns of genes they share,not specific 'race genes'.


http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17339205

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One scientific topic that I have previously discussed is the biological validity of the race concept. This, unfortunately, has become necessary, because some people, perhaps with political motivations, assert, contrary to the evidence, that “race does not exist” and that race is a “social construct” with “no biological foundation.” These views have been effectively refuted in various forums, and more objective researchers support the race concept as well, if for no other reason the important medical implications of racial differences.

One popular and misinterpreted finding that has been eagerly grasped at by those who preach that “race is not real” is derived from the work of Richard Lewontin, which demonstrated that more genetic variation exits within rather than between groups. I have previously explained how Lewontin’s finding in no way discredits the race concept. However, there are “anti-racist” activists who still claim, based on their misinterpretations of population genetics, that individual Europeans (“whites”) can be more genetically similar to sub-Saharan Africans (“blacks”) than to other Europeans. Until now, there has been no formal proof that this assertion is incorrect. I am now pleased to say that a recent scientific paper has delved into this very topic and that the findings of this paper clearly demonstrate that the race deniers are wrong. First, let me give a brief introduction for the sake of clarity.

A number of scientific studies have shown that it is possible to genetically cluster individuals to their self-identified race with near 100% accuracy. Further, racial categories can be determined by the genetic data even without any a priori information about the groups involved. In other words, racial groups can be empirically observed through genetic analysis without any prior assumptions about these groups by the researchers.

However, does that imply that individual members of these races will always be more genetically similar to members of their own racial group compared to members of other groups? Or, are genetic clustering and individual genetic similarity so different that this may not be always so? Can individuals share more genetic similarity to members of other groups rather than to members of their own group, even if everyone is properly clustered with their self-identified race? In other words, can there be significant genetic overlap between individuals on the fringes of, say, the European and African clusters?

These are the questions asked, and answered, in the paper Genetic Similarities Within and Between Human Populations by Witherspoon et al., Genetics 176, pgs. 351-359, 2007. I will simplify the authors’ statements and analogies so as to make the work more understandable to the broad readership; although this may mean that certain detailed specifics are glossed over, the main “take home” points and essential interpretations remain intact. And, since the paper is available online at no cost, any reader interested in delving into the scientific details can do so at their leisure.

The authors introduced the metric “w”, which they defined as:

… the frequency with which a pair of individuals from different populations is genetically more similar than a pair from the same population.

In other words, what is being determined with “w” is the frequency with which, for example, individual whites and individual blacks may be more similar to each other than to members of their own race. This measurement, which is based upon gene by gene comparisons between individuals, is different from the two clustering measurements that the authors compare to “w.” Unlike “w”, the clustering measurements incorporate population-level genetic information, and thus consider the “aggregate” qualities of the population’s genetic information. To put it simply, and bypassing many details, “w” compares individuals to each other, while clustering is, essentially, comparisons of individuals to the “genetic average” (or “centroid”) of different populations. By crude analogy, we can consider physical traits. “W” would be analogous to how similar two individuals are to each other in height, weight, eye color, skin color, hair color, facial features, etc. Clustering, in contrast, is more analogous to how similar each individual is to the average measurements of height, weight, eye color, etc. for any group. Thus “w” can tell us how similar individuals are to each other, while clustering tells us whether an individual is more similar to one group or another. Clustering allows us to “bin” (or “cluster”) individuals as belonging to one group or another.

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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #47 - May 17th, 2013 at 5:53pm
 
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As the authors used more and more markers to compare the three major racial groups (Europeans, East Asians, and sub-Saharan Africans), the less stringent clustering measurements rapidly fell to a 0% overlap, as expected from previous studies. What about the more stringent measurement “w”, which looks at comparisons between individuals, and does not consider group data? Once the authors reached 1,000 (or more) markers, the genetic overlap between these groups essentially reached zero. It is useful at this point to quote the authors about this fundamentally important finding: “This implies that, when enough loci are considered, individuals from these population groups will always be genetically more similar to members of their own group.” With respect to the question of whether individual members of one group may be genetically more similar to members of another group, they write:

However, if genetic similarity is measured over many thousands of loci, the answer becomes “never” when individuals are sampled from geographically separated populations.

Thus, the naďve “anti-racist” view, actually stated by some people, that it is possible for individual Europeans and Africans to be more genetically similar to each other than to members of their own race, is simply false. Any such “finding” is simply due to insufficient numbers of DNA markers being used. With an adequate methodology, individual members of the major racial groups will always be more similar to members of their own group than to members of other groups. Some may not like this, and deem it “racist,” but these are the scientific facts, nonetheless.

For whatever reason, the authors were not satisfied with ending their study with these findings and decided to repeat their data analysis incorporating populations they term “intermediate” or “admixed.” These included New Guineans, South Asians, Native Americans, African Americans and “Hispano-Latino” groups. Not unexpectedly, it became somewhat more difficult to distinguish between groups, with a given number of markers, when these additional “intermediate/admixed” populations were added. Even with more than 10,000 markers, the “w” measurement and the clustering measurements never quite reached zero with respect to overlap, although the numbers were low. For example the authors state that with 1,000 or more markers the “w” measurement reached a value of 3.1%, meaning that even with the intermediate/admixed populations, genetic overlap was at a frequency of less than 5%.

Do these latter findings mean that there will always be genetic overlap between members of more closely related groups, especially when so-called “intermediate” and “admixed” populations are considered? Although some people may fervently wish that 100% accurate classification will remain impossible, except for the most widely divergent groups, this may well not be the case. We are entering an era in which reasonably affordable whole genome sequencing will be possible, and with the proper methodologies, it will be possible to compare a number of markers considerably larger than what is used in the current paper. While 10,000 markers may not be sufficient to eliminate overlap between all groups completely – although it does reduce the overlap to very low levels – it is possible that larger numbers of markers, or even whole genome comparisons, could do so. With more data, it may well be possible to distinguish, with near 100% accuracy, between groups that still demonstrate a low level of “w” with current data.

Then we must consider the issue of genetic structure, not directly addressed in this study. Although structure can include such genetic phenomena as inversions, deletions, and copy number variation, the major component of genetic structure is the co-inheritance of specific genes. In other words, we must consider not only the frequencies of each gene taken in turn, but the frequencies of specific genes together. For example, there are genes that code for eye color, skin color, hair color, etc. One can examine the frequency of each gene on a one-by-one basis in an individual (or group) and do all the pairwise comparisons to another individual (or group) and determine “w.” But what are the frequencies of particular combinations of gene types inherited together? For example, what is the frequency of having genes for blue eyes and blonde hair and fair skin, etc. co-inherited, rather than measuring the frequencies of each of these genes in turn and averaging the results? Genetic structure superimposes further genetic differences on top of one-by-one consideration of genes; therefore, differences between groups are going to be larger when structure is considered compared to when only frequency differences of individual genes are measured and averaged.

To further explain the difference between genetic similarity and genetic structure, I present an analogy using colored marbles. Assume that individuals of different races each have a set of marbles, numbered from one to 100, with the marbles being of various colors. Genetic similarity (the basis of the “w” metric) would be analogous to comparing the marbles of two individuals one-by-one; first comparing the color of marble #1, then #2, then #3, and so forth, on an individual basis and then counting the total number of matches. Genetic structure, on the other hand, would be analogous to asking if the two individuals have similar, or even identical
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #48 - May 17th, 2013 at 5:54pm
 
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combinations of colors for specific marbles. For example, person A may have red marbles for #1, 6, and 15; blue marbles for # 3, 10, 33, and 95; green marbles for # 7, 8, 22, and 84, and a yellow marble for # 38. If this particular, specific combination of colored marbles is of importance, we can then ask if person B has a similar combination. What is important here is not the one-by-one counting of matches, but whether the whole pattern is replicated, or almost replicated, between two individuals (or groups).

What about the relation between genetic ancestry and individual phenotype? The authors do state that: “Thus it may be possible to infer something about an individual’s phenotype from knowledge of his or her ancestry.” However, since phenotypic traits are coded for by a number of genes smaller than that required to yield low genetic overlap, the authors assert that there may be significant phenotypic overlap between people of different groups. They give an example of a trait “determined by 12…loci,” which would yield a 36% overlap of phenotypes between individuals of different groups. Yet, racial groups show markedly different phenotypes. How is this so, if what the authors state is true? There are two points that the authors neglect to emphasize. First, many phenotypic traits, including racially relevant ones, have been selected for because of their adaptive value, or the populations commonly exhibiting these traits have been subject to genetic drift isolated from other populations. Thus, it is not reasonable to assume that genes that code for phenotype are going to have the same “worldwide distributions” as markers used in this study. For example, gene alleles coding for skin color show markedly higher frequency differences between populations than do the neutral markers used in population genetics. A second point is that racial phenotypes are the result of genetic structure, of many types of traits co-inherited together, and it is the sum total of all these differences that allow for racial distinction at the phenotypic level. Looking at individual phenotypic traits, just like looking at individual gene frequencies, is going to provide a markedly incomplete picture of human racial variation.

How do the findings of the paper relate to the subject of Frank Salter’s concept of “ethnic genetic interests?” This paper strongly supports the concept, which is dependent upon genetic differences between peoples. After all, there is essentially zero genetic overlap between individual members of the major racial groups; a member of one of these groups is always going to be more similar to a member of their own group than to that of another. Multiplied over the large numbers of people that constitute racial groups yields a very substantial genetic interest. Even if we take at face value this paper’s findings concerning the intermediate/admixed populations, the ethnic genetic interest concept holds as well. In the vast majority of cases, an individual will be more similar to members of their own group; overlap, while not zero, is low. When one multiples these differences over the large numbers of people involved, then there are very large and crucial differences of genetic interests regardless of which populations are considered.

But that is not all. First, consider that with sufficient numbers of genes assayed, the small degree of overlap observed with the intermediate/admixed groups may disappear; it would almost certainly disappear if genetic structure is considered. Second, and perhaps most important, the ethnic genetic interest concept is not based on overall genetic similarity/difference, but rather on differences in frequencies of distinctive genes, above and beyond random gene sharing. After all, those genes that do not differ in frequency between groups do not contribute to differences in genetic interests, because their frequency stays unchanged regardless of the outcome of competition. Even if an entire racial group were to die out, the frequency of these “shared genes” would remain unchanged. Note that measurements of overall genetic similarity, such as “w,” will as a matter of course also include genes that do not differ in frequency between groups. Therefore, even when “w” shows a low degree of overlap, there may well be no overlap at all with respect to those genes that are distinctive, that vary in frequency between populations.

To further explain the importance of distinctive genes vs. “w,” I will go back to my colored marbles analogy. Imagine that the distribution of colors for marbles 1-80 was completely random, but the colors for marbles 81-100 were specific to a person’s race. Overall similarity in marble color (analogous to “w”) would consider all 100 marbles. However, if we were to ask how the color frequencies of the marbles were to change if people of one race were completely removed from the example, we would observe that only marbles 81-100 would be affected. For marbles 1-80, since the color distribution is completely random with respect to race, it doesn’t matter if one race or another is eliminated from this marble counting exercise. Only the “population-distinctive marbles” are at issue here. Likewise, when considering competition and conflicting genetic interests between human groups, the gene frequencies that really matter are those that exhibit differences in frequency between the groups, not those that are randomly distributed between the groups.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #49 - May 17th, 2013 at 9:47pm
 
JC Denton wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 5:27pm:
brian ross is that who i think you are


Sorry?  I am me.  Who do you think I am?   Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Big Donger
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #50 - May 17th, 2013 at 11:14pm
 
... wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 5:41pm:
Big Donger wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 10:24am:
Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on May 12th, 2013 at 1:45pm:
I wouldn't call that trendyism. I have read histories that explain the interactions between Aboriginals and the early settlers. These are actually quite interesting. The key word here is "explain," not moralise.


Darren Curnoe, the author of the study you mention, did explain - in his findings. Read the linked abstract - nothing moralistic there. Your quote is an interview with him.

The petty rivalry and bigotry among Europeans is profound. Darren Curnoe is pointing out the relevance of his findings - that there is no genetic difference between Europeans.

Likewise, the Human Genome Project have found no genes that cause race. They've found genetic propensities towards diseases which are more prevalent within some races, but they've discovered no genes for race itself.

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/human-genome-project-announces-race-does-not-exist

For a more in-depth discussion:

http://www.asc.upenn.edu/usr/ogandy/C45405%20resources/McCann%20race%20human%20genome.pdf

This is science, not moralizing. The question, from a scientific point of view, is how we can conceptualize a biological phenomenon such as race, when there is no biological evidence for it. Cultural, sure, but not biological.

If you're after hard science, this is what you'll get. The moralizing is just an add-on. Do with this information what you will.


Did anyone ever think there was a single gene for 'race'?   Undecided  Sounds like a strawman to me.



You think the Human Genome Project are playing a rhetorical game? It’s in their interest to find a biological cause for race. They’ve found racial propensity for certain diseases and traits, but they can’t find race itself.

If they did, they’d isolate genetic weaknesses and win Nobel prizes. But they can’t. At least 8 blood types I can think of, and that doesn’t include the ones that have faded into scientific obscurity - none of them match race.

This doesn’t mean they won’t find something one day, but if race was such a critical marker of human biology, you’d think they’d have come up with something by now. Mind you, they said the same about Saddam’s WMDs.

And if you and Imperium were all about the science, you’d listen to actual scientists and not "moralizers" like Imperium’s article above. "Political motivations", eh?

Does that count as moralizing, Mistie?
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #51 - May 18th, 2013 at 12:00am
 
Nobody needs a study to tell them there's such a thing as race when their own eyes will do. 

Genes cause a persons basic characteristics.  It's just simple cause & effect.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #52 - May 18th, 2013 at 1:39am
 
Brian Ross wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 9:47pm:
JC Denton wrote on May 17th, 2013 at 5:27pm:
brian ross is that who i think you are


Sorry?  I am me.  Who do you think I am?   Roll Eyes


hoighty toighty morally indignant arrogant bastard who feels it necessary to stick on a " Roll Eyes " at the end of every post - is that you ziggy?!?!!?

bugger me, pull the stick out of your bum hole son.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #53 - May 18th, 2013 at 2:05am
 
... wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 12:00am:
Nobody needs a study to tell them there's such a thing as race when their own eyes will do. 

Genes cause a persons basic characteristics.  It's just simple cause & effect. 


Our "race" is determined by our outer appearance. That's about it.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #54 - May 18th, 2013 at 11:46am
 
... wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 12:00am:
Nobody needs a study to tell them there's such a thing as race when their own eyes will do. 

Genes cause a persons basic characteristics.  It's just simple cause & effect. 


Simple, eh? Then how come they can find genes for things like red hair and albinism, but nothing for tintedness or stick inventing? By your measure, redheads and albinos should be classed as races.

No one here is saying race doesn’t exist. What is shown, however, is that genetically, no differences have been discovered.

Read Imperium’s long article. It’s very careful to state that it has no evidence for its claims. It’s just a hunch.

The Human Genome Project is a little more than a hunch - it’s actual evidence.

All science can state at this stage is that there is no known biological cause of race. This alone blows all your brain size arguments out of the water.

If you want "academic freedom", this is it. Freedom is a dual-edged sword. Sometimes freedom leads you to places you don’t want to go, but to be truly free, you’re compelled to go there. Freedom has very definite limitations.

Freedom is bound by truth. Don’t like it? Don’t blame science.

Blame yourself.
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« Last Edit: May 18th, 2013 at 12:06pm by Big Donger »  
 
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #55 - May 18th, 2013 at 11:54am
 
Mnemonic wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 2:05am:
... wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 12:00am:
Nobody needs a study to tell them there's such a thing as race when their own eyes will do. 

Genes cause a persons basic characteristics.  It's just simple cause & effect. 


Our "race" is determined by our outer appearance. That's about it.


If genes for the appearance of skin, hair, and facial structure differ, why not genes for the million other traits?  I don't think genes care about conforming to such arbitrary distinctions.

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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #56 - May 18th, 2013 at 12:16pm
 
Genes change. Allergies, immunity to disease, hormones  - all are influenced by an organism’s negative feedback systems.

The same is true for behavioural traits. Cell division - and neurological functioning -is never linear or static.

And that’s as medical/biological as I’m prepared to get.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #57 - May 18th, 2013 at 12:22pm
 
Big Donger wrote on May 18th, 2013 at 12:16pm:
Genes change



And the genes represented in a population change also.  Why do they change karnal?  And what do you call the result of these incremental changes over long periods of time?  I'm almost sure there's a word for it....it's on the tip of my tongue....oh never mind, it'll come to me.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #58 - May 18th, 2013 at 12:31pm
 
I have no idea, but I’d hazzard a guess: external stimuli. Temperature, wet and dry, pressure, etc.

I’ve found an old boy can change into a simpering little virgin in no time due to a bit of pressure.

Marvellous stuff, it really is.
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Re: The End of Academic Freedom
Reply #59 - May 18th, 2013 at 12:32pm
 
You changed the question. Sneaky.
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