Australian Politics Forum - No peer-review of green house theory

progressiveslol Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17029	No peer-review of green house theory Mar 9^th, 2012 at 7:10pm Green house theory will have to be debated one day. http://climaterealists.com/?id=9255 I am seeing more push for debate. There seem to be many theories of this non-peer reviewed (must be pseudo science for sure then) theory. A good theory recently http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330043618
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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #1 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:02am

What a load of nonsense. I posted a paper on another thread that covered all aspects of the greenhouse effect and climate change. That's just one, and it was certainly peer reviewed.

Quote:

A good theory recently
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1330043618

That is regarded as nonsense not only by mainstream climate scientists, but even by creationist nutjobs like John Christy and Ron Spencer from UAH. I doubt if even Lindzen would sink that low.

I notice that it all comes from John O Sullivan, who is a British journalist now living in Alabama, who likes to deny basic science. It's quite amusing that he's going after all the denialists.

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« Last Edit: Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:19am by muso »

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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #2 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:22am

Again, here is that link. It covers all the basics and brings all the basic science together in one chapter.... and of course it's peer reviewed. The study was led by Stefan Ramstorf from the University of Potsdam.

Many denialists have come up with this particular gem that the basic science is not peer reviewed. Well the Rahmstorf paper has the advantage that it covers all the essentials. Apart from that, there are hundreds of climatology textbooks, which are all peer reviewed.

http://www.pik-potsdam.de/~stefan/Publications/Book_chapters/Rahmstorf_Zedillo_2...

I don't know where O Sullivan is going. His attacks seem to be mainly on denialists, which is quite amusing in itself, but as he has no scientific knowledge and his theories are totally crazy, nobody in the scientific community is taking him seriously.

If you really want me to take a few points from his diatribe and prove them wrong, I can do. It should be easy.

OK, the very first line is wrong. Tim Ball is not a Climatologist:

His only publication vaguely about the climate was: Climate Change in Central Canada, but the subheading gives it a bit of context: A Preliminary Analysis of Weather Information from the Hudson's Bay Company Forts at York Factory and Churchill Factory, 1714-1850. . That was published in 1972, and it's not related to global climate in any way shape or form.

Since then, his papers have been mainly about mineral processing, and he has written articles for the popular press on climate denialism.

Any discussion on Tim Ball as being a climatologist starts as a strawman in itself.

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« Last Edit: Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:44am by muso »

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progressiveslol Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17029	Re: No peer-review of green house theory Reply #3 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:14am Falsification of the Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects within the Frame Of Physics http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf A paper on actual greenhouse effect. Not on assuming a greenhouse effect.
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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #4 - Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:06pm

progressiveslol wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:14am:

Falsification of the Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects within the Frame Of Physics

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf

A paper on actual greenhouse effect. Not on assuming a greenhouse effect.

That paper has been thoroughly debunked. Here is an article that summarises the papers that debunk it:

http://duoquartuncia.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/early-in-2009-unusual-paper-appeare...

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progressiveslol

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #5 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 7:06am

muso wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 12:06pm:

progressiveslol wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 11:14am:

Falsification of the Atmospheric CO2 Greenhouse Effects within the Frame Of Physics

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0707/0707.1161v4.pdf

A paper on actual greenhouse effect. Not on assuming a greenhouse effect.

That paper has been thoroughly debunked. Here is an article that summarises the papers that debunk it:

http://duoquartuncia.blogspot.com.au/2010/05/early-in-2009-unusual-paper-appeare...

Dubunked how?

I particully like this statement from the original author
Quote:

They do not even define a greenhouse effect that they wish to defend.

To debunk, they would at the very least, show peer-reviewed content and some of their own scientific peer-reviewed content on the 'green house gas effect' of the atmosphere.

abstract from original author reply to comment
Quote:

It is shown that the notorious claim by Halpern et al. recently repeated in their comment that the method, logic, and conclusions of our "Falsification Of The CO2 Greenhouse Effects Within The Frame Of Physics" would be in error has no foundation. Since Halpern et al. communicate our arguments incorrectly, their comment is scientifically vacuous. In particular, it is not true that we are "trying to apply the Clausius statement of the Second Law of Thermodynamics to only one side of a heat transfer process rather than the entire process" and that we are "systematically ignoring most non-radiative heat flows applicable to Earth's surface and atmosphere". Rather, our falsification paper discusses the violation of fundamental physical and mathematical principles in 14 examples of common pseudo-derivations of fictitious greenhouse effects that are all based on simplistic pictures of radiative transfer and their obscure relation to thermodynamics, including but not limited to those descriptions (a) that define a "Perpetuum Mobile Of The 2nd Kind", (b) that rely on incorrectly calculated averages of global temperatures, (c) that refer to incorrectly normalized spectra of electromagnetic radiation. Halpern et al. completely missed an exceptional chance to formulate a scientifically well-founded antithesis. They do not even define a greenhouse effect that they wish to defend. We take the opportunity to clarify some misunderstandings, which are communicated in the current discussion on the non-measurable, i.e., physically non-existing influence of the trace gas CO2 on the climates of the Earth.

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Doctor Jolly Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3808	Re: No peer-review of green house theory Reply #6 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 9:17am Another progressives/longweekend epic fail. How many failures will it take for you to move out of the AGW space ?
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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: No peer-review of green house theory Reply #7 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 4:46pm I've got a theory, ... can I get it peer reviewed please? It goes, ALL LIBERAL VOTERS SPEND THEIR LIFE TRYING TO PUT THEIR HAND DOWN THEIR SLAVES PANTS!
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: No peer-review of green house theory Reply #8 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 8:18pm SAD but true.
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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #9 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 8:24pm

What annoys me is people who try to put a political stance on science. Atmospheric science has nothing to do with politics. You can understand it (or not as the case may be) and be from anywhere in the political spectrum.

Quote:

They do not even define a greenhouse effect that they wish to defend.

It just clicked why he includes denialists. He's including them as climate scientists. If you read the article, you'll see that he even argues about Monckton's views. I can understand why - he's a soft target.

Well if you include that bunch then it would be a fair observation that they can't define the Greenhouse effect. I very much doubt if Monckton could.

So the strawman is very clever. He cites the diversity of climate science and makes the assertion that they can't even agree with the basics. Well there is no way that you can include these beanos in the cadre of climate professionals.

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« Last Edit: Mar 12^th, 2012 at 8:33pm by muso »

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Emma

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #10 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 8:42pm

[quote author=70686E721D0 link=1331284230/9#9 date=1331547854]What annoys me is people who try to put a political stance on science. Atmospheric science has nothing to do with politics. You can understand it (or not as the case may be) and be from anywhere in the political spectrum.

[quote]

Quite so Muso... politics . like religion, should stay out off science.... the agenda's contained therein do nothing to forward the cause of science. They do the opposite. And usually from a basepoint which is not consistent with known scientific fact.

Despite what others may say, I think 'media' obviously has an enormous role in vox populi ..
and like they say ' never let the facts get in the way of a good story'.

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progressiveslol

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #11 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 10:03pm

muso wrote on Mar 12^th, 2012 at 8:24pm:

What annoys me is people who try to put a political stance on science. Atmospheric science has nothing to do with politics. You can understand it (or not as the case may be) and be from anywhere in the political spectrum.

Quote:

They do not even define a greenhouse effect that they wish to defend.

It just clicked why he includes denialists. He's including them as climate scientists. If you read the article, you'll see that he even argues about Monckton's views. I can understand why - he's a soft target.

Well if you include that bunch then it would be a fair observation that they can't define the Greenhouse effect. I very much doubt if Monckton could.

So the strawman is very clever. He cites the diversity of climate science and makes the assertion that they can't even agree with the basics. Well there is no way that you can include these beanos in the cadre of climate professionals.

So they dont define the green house effect because they can't. Very strange way to win an argument about the green house effect. Matter of fact, it is the way you lose the argument and debunk nothing.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: No peer-review of green house theory Reply #12 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 10:18pm I should think anyone with an interest could define the greenhouse effect. Perhaps not in scientific terms, with attendant brouhaha, but in general terms, which is what is required to convince the deniers. .
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progressiveslol

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #13 - Mar 12^th, 2012 at 11:03pm

Emma wrote on Mar 12^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

I should think anyone with an interest could define the greenhouse effect. Perhaps not in scientific terms, with attendant brouhaha, but in general terms, which is what is required to convince the deniers.

.

You would think anyone wishing to debunk someones idea of green house effect, would supply scientific evidence aka peer-reviewed material in support of what they say is 'the' greenhouse effect on the atmosphere.

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Emma

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #14 - Mar 13^th, 2012 at 12:10am

OK ......

Proglol !! Huh

How much 'definition' do you want.?.

Keep it basic...
because OBVIOUSLY, any article/report/survey/scientific assessment/ study/?-(of which there is now a surfeit) ....that takes a position and (peer-reviewed or not) says...' global warming, resulting from , primarily, the greenhouse effect, ...' is attacked as 'fantasy'..
Sadly the nay-sayers may yet live to regret their position. But they cannot win the argument.!

It is undeniable in my view. ......I am not a scientist - I am a human being who lives close to nature. ( i am not an animal!!)
Your peer-reviewed papers mean very little in the whole.

And no doubt the view of many others reflect my own,..people who are witnessing in their lifetimes, major climactic change. !

Just lucky I guess.

Roll Eyes

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progressiveslol

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #15 - Mar 13^th, 2012 at 5:34am

Emma wrote on Mar 13^th, 2012 at 12:10am:

OK ......

Proglol !! Huh

How much 'definition' do you want.?.

Keep it basic...
because OBVIOUSLY, any article/report/survey/scientific assessment/ study/?-(of which there is now a surfeit) ....that takes a position and (peer-reviewed or not) says...' global warming, resulting from , primarily, the greenhouse effect, ...' is attacked as 'fantasy'..
Sadly the nay-sayers may yet live to regret their position. But they cannot win the argument.!

It is undeniable in my view. ......I am not a scientist - I am a human being who lives close to nature. ( i am not an animal!!)
Your peer-reviewed papers mean very little in the whole.

And no doubt the view of many others reflect my own,..people who are witnessing in their lifetimes, major climactic change. !

Just lucky I guess.

Roll Eyes

What is the question or was it you just trying to tell us that because you are one with nature, you know it has changed. You dont have to be one with nature to know it has changed and you would have to be kind of special .... not to know that earth has climate cycles (up and downs).

So instead of peer-review, we should take your word for it, because you are one with nature and you are special.

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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #16 - Mar 14^th, 2012 at 9:54am

progressiveslol wrote on Mar 12^th, 2012 at 10:03pm:

[quote author=677F79650A0 link=1331284230/9#9 date=1331547854]
So they dont define the green house effect because they can't. Very strange way to win an argument about the green house effect. Matter of fact, it is the way you lose the argument and debunk nothing.

The greenhouse effect is there. It's observable, and if it didn't exist, the Earth would be much cooler than it is. I had never seen that article by Gerhardt Gerlich before, but on first scan, there is a disconnect between observable processes and the mathematics. The models are internally consistent, but not with this universe. I think the guy has an agenda.

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muso

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #17 - Mar 14^th, 2012 at 10:25am

progressiveslol wrote on Mar 12^th, 2012 at 11:03pm:

Emma wrote on Mar 12^th, 2012 at 10:18pm:

I should think anyone with an interest could define the greenhouse effect. Perhaps not in scientific terms, with attendant brouhaha, but in general terms, which is what is required to convince the deniers.

.

You would think anyone wishing to debunk someones idea of green house effect, would supply scientific evidence aka peer-reviewed material in support of what they say is 'the' greenhouse effect on the atmosphere.

Didn't I just do that in my second reply?

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Emma

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Re: No peer-review of green house theory
Reply #18 - Mar 14^th, 2012 at 8:27pm

progressiveslol wrote on Mar 13^th, 2012 at 5:34am:

[quote 8]OK ......

It is undeniable in my view. ......I am not a scientist - I am a human being who lives close to nature. ( i am not an animal!!)
Your peer-reviewed papers mean very little in the whole.

And no doubt the view of many others reflect my own,..people who are witnessing in their lifetimes, major climactic change. !

Just lucky I guess.

Roll Eyes

What is the question or was it you just trying to tell us that because you are one with nature, you know it has changed. You dont have to be one with nature to know it has changed and you would have to be kind of special .... not to know that earth has climate cycles (up and downs).

So instead of peer-review, we should take your word for it, because you are one with nature and you are special. [/quote]

You could do a lot worse...- ( ahum... you do do a lot worse.!!)

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