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The Green Killer (Wind Turbines) (Read 3211 times)
freediver
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #15 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:16pm
 
Quote:
I have seen 3MW turbines in action they would be flat out at 16 rpm.


Do you realise what speed that means at the blade tip?
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #16 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:16pm:
Quote:
I have seen 3MW turbines in action they would be flat out at 16 rpm.


Do you realise what speed that means at the blade tip?


Do you want me to do some maths?

Pick a blade-
90m diameter
100
103
109

The tip has the highest velocity not the whole blade, you could always paint the tip in bright colours to piss the locals off even more. Smiley
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #17 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:01pm
 
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #18 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:55pm
 
In the US pesticides alone kill 72 million birds annually. Birds killed by wind farms make up a very small percentage of the birds killed by human activity. Obviously a poorly placed wind farm may have an impact on a specific endangered species, but this would be the exception, hardly the rule.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."
 
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #19 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 10:09pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:34pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:16pm:
Quote:
I have seen 3MW turbines in action they would be flat out at 16 rpm.


Do you realise what speed that means at the blade tip?


Do you want me to do some maths?

Pick a blade-
90m diameter
100
103
109

The tip has the highest velocity not the whole blade, you could always paint the tip in bright colours to piss the locals off even more. Smiley


Yes please, you do the math. You came up with the RPM so you can give the diameter also.
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #20 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 1:52pm
 
The RPM figure came from the technical data from the manufacturer of the turbines which i linked in a previous post, i did make a typo with that.

I will go with the 90m diameter because this is Australia which has much higher average windspeed compared to Europe.

pi x 90m = 282.7 m circumference

282.7 x 16 rpm = 4523.9m/min

4523/60 = 75.4 m/s for tip speed at max rpm.

Since it was rated at 5-16 rpm we should do minimum speed.

5rpm = 1rpm every 12 seconds.

282.7/12= 23.5 m/s

Therefore going by manufacturers data the 3MW turbine will have a tip speed of between 23.5 m/s - 75.4 m/s depending on windspeed when operating.

Its a long way short of supersonic tip speeds,did anyone think this would happen with something driven by the kinetic energy of air?

If the turbine does reach 73 rpm (tipspeed approaching supersonic) dig out a video camera and stand clear.

Windpower is the cheapest way to produce electricity.

Power can be generated by burning coal/gas or nuclear.
They boil water to make the steam that drives turbines with this method.

This power is then sent by high voltage power lines from power stations to the sub stations where is is stepped down to 240v for distribution.
By using higher voltage from the power station it reduces the current which is the limiting factor of the wires.
These wires get hot so air cooling is preferable as the undeground high voltage power lines cost about 1 million dollars per KM,they are liquid cooled with pumps circulating coolant.

So do we build more power stations or look at other alternatives?
Nuclear is expensive,dangerous and outdated,you cannot turn a nuclear power plant down they run full stick 24 hours a day until the fuel rods need replacing.
Burning gas would be preferable to coal,turn a tap and you slow the power plant down.

I think we should make more use of wind turbines and solar.

Solar panels on the roofs of houses/factories/etc is a great idea because it produces power without having to build new power stations or sub stations,the consumer benefits with cheaper power bills and they can sell what they dont use back to the power companies.

Solar is now less than $1 per watt yet it is still more expensive than windpower.

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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #21 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 2:00pm
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:13pm:
[quote author=71657272737E617265170 link=1330897876/13#13 date=1330937444]

There are reports of bats flying into parked F117 stealth fighters at night and killing themselves.
That sort of thing increases a pilots confidence in the stealth ability of that aircraft.




Jeez, I hope you posted this in jest; use a smiley face or something if you want 'stupid' statements to be taken as sarcastic.
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #22 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 2:06pm
 
BigOl64 wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 2:00pm:
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:13pm:
[quote author=71657272737E617265170 link=1330897876/13#13 date=1330937444]

There are reports of bats flying into parked F117 stealth fighters at night and killing themselves.
That sort of thing increases a pilots confidence in the stealth ability of that aircraft.




Jeez, I hope you posted this in jest; use a smiley face or something if you want 'stupid' statements to be taken as sarcastic.


It has happened there are bodies of dead bats to prove it.

The bats have a type of sonar system that cannot detect the F117.
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #23 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:16pm:
Quote:
I have seen 3MW turbines in action they would be flat out at 16 rpm.


Do you realise what speed that means at the blade tip?







How fast do wind turbines spin?




Between 207 kph and 305 kph







We just timed the four turbines in Atlantic City, NJ. The tip of the blade will of course spin faster than the base since it has further to travel, so that is what we will calculate.

Guesstimating that the blade is 120 ft. in length, we need to find the circumference of the circle described by the spinning blade tip. The formula for the circumference is 2śr or two times the radius of the circle (which is the diameter) * pi (about 3.1415). So 2*120ft.=240ft. for the diameter. 240*3.1415=753.96ft for the circumference.

Since the blade travels that distance in 4 seconds, the ft/sec traveled is (753.96/4=188.49ft/sec). To get that speed in miles/hour multiply (188.49 ft/s * 0.681818182).

So the blade tip is traveling at about 128.5 mph!


Which is a little bit slow... They typically (company statement) rotate between 15 and 20 rpm so: 60s/m / 15 rev/m = 4 s/rev and likewise 20 rpm corresponds to 3 s/rev.
Measuring the blades laying flat on the ground in a construction yard in Google Earth results in an approximate length of 126 ft to 128.6 ft. HOWEVER, you also have to account for the hub that these are attached to. Measuring this is a bit more difficult as I couldn't find one where the perspective was perfect so I got between 3 and 4 feet for the radius of the hub. This results in an overall radius of between 129 ft and 132.6 ft. c=2*pi*r gives 810.53 ft to 833.15 ft. Dividing by the time to travel this distance (3-4s) gives 202.63 ft/s to 277.72 ft/s. Multiply this answer by 3600s/hr / 5280 ft/mi. to get it into mph.


Which gives a range of 138.16 mph to 189.35 mph for the blade tip. Which seems very, very fast when you stand directly under it with it swinging at your face!


Quote:
Side note:


Some people complain about noise from them.
Honestly I couldn't hear anything over the howling of the wind.






http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_fast_do_wind_turbines_spin




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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #24 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 5:41pm
 
It is NOT unusual for climate change deniers, the coal industry - and
anti-renewable energy lobby groups
- to come up with something new to justify their stance, when all else is debunked

I had one "bozo" - from the "Landscape Guardians" - tell me that wind turbines caused CANCER !


( ... the MOST worrying part was - I think he BELIEVED it)i
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #25 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:44pm
 
Baron do you not believe your own calculations? These things are enourmous, so obviously the tip is going to travel at well above bird chopping speed.
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #26 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:44pm:
Baron do you not believe your own calculations? These things are enourmous, so obviously the tip is going to travel at well above bird chopping speed.


Yes i do

The tip speed in KPH , 23.5x3.6=84,6Kph, 75.4x3.6=271 kph
The larger ones spin a bit slower than what Buzz posted.

It would be fairly quick for any bird that got hit, at least with 16rpm max speed they could still see the blades.

You could employ FLIR to pick up the heat of an approaching bird and then have basic electronic controls to activate the hydraulic disc brake to slow or stop the turbines all done automatically,the technology is there.

I think this whole bird thing is fear mongering from the oil and coal industry.

Windpower is the cheapest source of electricity  of course the coal lobby will come up with nonsense to discredit windpower.

Still waiting for pics with heaps of dead birds at the base of a wind turbine.

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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #27 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 10:50am
 
More disgusting waste of Australian taxpayers' fund by the profligate Labor "govt" not to mention the noise of these contraptions which causes health problems for anyone unlucky enough to be living within 2km of these monstrosities.

Billions blown away on wind power, says British study

by: David Crowe, National affairs editor From:The Australian March 09, 2012 12:00AM 20

GOVERNMENTS are squandering billions of dollars on "uneconomic" wind farms, according to a landmark study that undermines the case for Labor's huge renewable energy subsidies.

Investment in wind turbines will fail to cut enough greenhouse gas emissions to justify their cost, economists warned yesterday after a detailed British analysis released this week.

The conclusions challenge a cornerstone of Labor's climate change policy as the federal government pours taxpayer funds into wind projects using direct subsidies, a planned $10 billion investment fund and renewable energy targets.

In a finding with direct relevance to Australia, the study by University of Edinburgh economics professor Gordon Hughes warns that using wind turbines to cut emissions costs 10 times the price of a gas-fired power station.

"Wind power is an extraordinarily expensive and inefficient way of reducing CO2 emissions when compared with the option of investing in efficient and flexible gas combined-cycle plans," he concludes.


Professor Hughes, a commissioner on Britain's Infrastructure Planning Commission and a former World Bank senior adviser, conducted his study for the Global Warming Policy Foundation, which is chaired by former Conservative chancellor Nigel Lawson.

The British study warns of the rising cost to consumers of wind power subsidies on the grounds that governments could achieve the same environmental benefits by other means at much lower cost.

Comparing a pound stg. 13 billion ($19bn) outlay on a combined-cycle gas plant against a pound stg. 120bn outlay on wind farms, Professor Hughes found the renewable energy option was too expensive by any standard.

Wind power would cut emissions at an average cost of pound stg. 270 a tonne, he estimated, but meeting Britain's greenhouse targets in this way would cost about pound stg. 78bn a year or 4.4 per cent of the nation's GDP.

Professor Hughes also warned that greenhouse gas emissions might be higher using wind turbines because the energy supply could be intermittent and would need back-up systems powered by fossil fuels.

"Any reduction in CO2 emissions due to additional wind generation will certainly be much lower than the headline figures quoted by lobbyists for renewable energy," Professor Hughes writes.

"Without some fundamental technical change, onshore wind power is going to remain uneconomic, especially if external costs are taken into account."


Frontier Economics managing director Danny Price said Australian policies to favour wind farms, such as the mandatory renewable energy target and direct subsidies, would be judged a "gigantic waste of money" in retrospect. "The real problem is they've put in place a scheme for renewables where the only real option is wind," he said. "But it is just so incredibly costly it's not funny."

Policies should favour a wider array of renewable projects instead, he said.

Anthony Owen of the International Energy Policy Institute in Adelaide said the British findings translated to Australian conditions, with the central conclusions not only being the high cost of wind power but also the fact that it was not zero-emission technology, despite common belief.

"The high capital cost of wind makes it particularly unattractive to private power generation companies in the absence of government subsidies," Professor Owen told The Australian.

"Gas-fired power generation is very flexible and relatively cheap in terms of capital costs.

"In the form of combined cycle gas turbine technology, it is also a much lower emitter of greenhouse gases - roughly 40 per cent of equivalent coal, in operation."

Professor Owen said Australia's wind resources had different characteristics to those in Britain, complicating comparison, but in principle the results carried over.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/billions-blown-away-on-wind-pow...

Comments on this story

Charles of Adelaide Posted at 10:17 AM Today
And gas-fired power stations do not junk, desecrate large areas of the landscape as wind farms do. Wind farms: the scandal of the century.

Green Sense Posted at 10:16 AM Today
This has been obvious to anyone with a little common sense for years. It just isn't politically correct, and so dissenting views have largely been silenced.

Kate of Brisbane Posted at 10:15 AM Today
Well Bob Brown, I think you should start living in the real world, the world of reality and stop dreaming of a world as you see it through rose coloured glasses. It wouldn't matter what you thought except that you hold the balance of power in Canberra and so influence policy with your kooky ideas.

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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #28 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:36pm
 
That's not the only thing that's bad about wind turbines. They need precious rare metals Neodium which is mined in China in the most appalling environmental conditions with a huge toxic lake claiming hundreds of lives in the search for these metals which run CLEAN ENERGY. Really the whole thing is a bloody joke.
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Re: The Green Killer (Wind Turbines)
Reply #29 - Mar 11th, 2012 at 1:24pm
 
red baron wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:36pm:
That's not the only thing that's bad about wind turbines. They need precious rare metals Neodium which is mined in China in the most appalling environmental conditions with a huge toxic lake claiming hundreds of lives in the search for these metals which run CLEAN ENERGY. Really the whole thing is a bloody joke.


What is Neodium that sounds like psuedoscience to me?

All this fear mongering over costs well lets look at California USA where windpower has been in use for many years.

Comparative costs of California central station electricity generation technologies.
http://www.energy.ca.gov/2007publications/CEC-200-2007-011/CEC-200-2007-011-SD.P...

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