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The end of peak Oil. (Read 7302 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #75 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:52pm
 
red baron wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 9:05am:
Absoluetly now - too right I can, when are you going to crack one? For funny material please check Uncle Meat's posts for a 'how to' guide.


Well, according to Longweakend, ALL of my posts are a joke, so I must be pretty funny?

Btw Longy, you started this thread & then ran, as soon as any solid information got posted.

Was that the extent of your knowledge on the issue, one post from a journalist?
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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #76 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 11:58pm
 
So, can someone tell me WHY oil is a finite resource? The same processes that formed it in the past are still operating today. makes the term bio-fuel a bit silly really, it's ALL bio-fuel.

As a geologist i always wonder why nobodies worried about us reaching peak gold? Hell, we've been mining that heaps longer than we've been extracting oil...Would someone please start a panic about that? I would love to increase my already exorbident rates on the back of a supercharged mining boom....

Also, theres a massive difference between the term reserve and resource, one is an economic term and the other isn't.
the whole agument of peak oil seems simple at first, however it just isn't. As the price rises, so the reserves increase (as resources become reserves) previously untenable sources (resources)now become economic (reserves). also, the relationship is logarithmic...not linear.

So peak Oil? at what price per barrel peak oil are you talking about?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #77 - Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:36am
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 11:58pm:
So, can someone tell me WHY oil is a finite resource? The same processes that formed it in the past are still operating today. makes the term bio-fuel a bit silly really, it's ALL bio-fuel.

As a geologist i always wonder why nobodies worried about us reaching peak gold? Hell, we've been mining that heaps longer than we've been extracting oil...Would someone please start a panic about that? I would love to increase my already exorbident rates on the back of a supercharged mining boom....

Also, theres a massive difference between the term reserve and resource, one is an economic term and the other isn't.
the whole agument of peak oil seems simple at first, however it just isn't. As the price rises, so the reserves increase (as resources become reserves) previously untenable sources (resources)now become economic (reserves). also, the relationship is logarithmic...not linear.

So peak Oil? at what price per barrel peak oil are you talking about?


A few observations -
1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.

3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas".    
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!
5) The Price of a barrel of Oil is Dependent on many things, but as time rolls forward, I expect there will be an initial Decline in the price of a barrel to perhaps US$60-70, because of a Global Economic slowdown, but then it will rise due to the constraints of Peak Oil to US$300, $500, $1,000 & upwards.
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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #78 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 9:57am
 
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:36am:
topend geo wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 11:58pm:
So, can someone tell me WHY oil is a finite resource? The same processes that formed it in the past are still operating today. makes the term bio-fuel a bit silly really, it's ALL bio-fuel.

As a geologist i always wonder why nobodies worried about us reaching peak gold? Hell, we've been mining that heaps longer than we've been extracting oil...Would someone please start a panic about that? I would love to increase my already exorbident rates on the back of a supercharged mining boom....

Also, theres a massive difference between the term reserve and resource, one is an economic term and the other isn't.
the whole agument of peak oil seems simple at first, however it just isn't. As the price rises, so the reserves increase (as resources become reserves) previously untenable sources (resources)now become economic (reserves). also, the relationship is logarithmic...not linear.

So peak Oil? at what price per barrel peak oil are you talking about?


A few observations -
1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
Um, does it? Nope sorry, you are incorrect, it's a common held misconception.
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.

the term "reserves" is meaningless without quoting a price per barrel at which this was calcutated.
3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas".
Prove it. You can't, thats speculation.    
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!
so? how does that change the argument that quoting a peak oil point is as meaningless as quoting a peak gold one?
5) The Price of a barrel of Oil is Dependent on many things, but as time rolls forward, I expect there will be an initial Decline in the price of a barrel to perhaps US$60-70, because of a Global Economic slowdown, but then it will rise due to the constraints of Peak Oil to US$300, $500, $1,000 & upwards.


Cheesy $1000 a barrel!! you do know it can be synthesized in a lab for a heap less than that don't you?
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« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2012 at 10:24am by perceptions_now »  
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #79 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 10:48am
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 9:57am:
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 8:36am:
topend geo wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 11:58pm:
So, can someone tell me WHY oil is a finite resource? The same processes that formed it in the past are still operating today. makes the term bio-fuel a bit silly really, it's ALL bio-fuel.

As a geologist i always wonder why nobodies worried about us reaching peak gold? Hell, we've been mining that heaps longer than we've been extracting oil...Would someone please start a panic about that? I would love to increase my already exorbident rates on the back of a supercharged mining boom....

Also, theres a massive difference between the term reserve and resource, one is an economic term and the other isn't.
the whole agument of peak oil seems simple at first, however it just isn't. As the price rises, so the reserves increase (as resources become reserves) previously untenable sources (resources)now become economic (reserves). also, the relationship is logarithmic...not linear.

So peak Oil? at what price per barrel peak oil are you talking about?


A few observations -
1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
Um, does it? Nope sorry, you are incorrect, it's a common held misconception.
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.

the term "reserves" is meaningless without quoting a price per barrel at which this was calcutated.
3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas".
Prove it. You can't, thats speculation.    
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!
so? how does that change the argument that quoting a peak oil point is as meaningless as quoting a peak gold one?
5) The Price of a barrel of Oil is Dependent on many things, but as time rolls forward, I expect there will be an initial Decline in the price of a barrel to perhaps US$60-70, because of a Global Economic slowdown, but then it will rise due to the constraints of Peak Oil to US$300, $500, $1,000 & upwards.


Cheesy $1000 a barrel!! you do know it can be synthesized in a lab for a heap less than that don't you?


As I said, as time rolls forward, you can expect those sort of Prices!

That said, even now when you could get non conventional oil from various sources for a lot less than $500 or $1,000 a barrel, there are at least 2 major problems -
1) EROI makes many of these processes into an Energy sink.
In other words, it takes nearly as much Energy to produce a barrel of oil, as that barrel of Oil will generate in Energy.
There is therefore, little or no spare capacity of Energy, with which to run a Local or Global Economy, let alone the 100/1 returns that were generated earlier on, by "natural" Crude Oil!

2) Try "manufacturing" even a 10-20% shortfall in Oil and you would see what enormous problems arise.

If that wasn't daunting enough, then try manufacturing a 40-50% shortfall of say 85 Billion barrels (which will happen), which is about the current annual Global Consumption and you would quickly come to the conclusion that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!
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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #80 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 11:24am
 
No, thats incorrect
The Germans manufactured High-octane fuel all throuout the latter part of WW-2. It's old proven technology it's not the energy budget that throws it, it's the economic budget...it's so darn cheap to produce oil in the conventional manner that alternatives cant compete.. @ $1000 a barrel, I quit Geology and start making on my block.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #81 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 12:28pm
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 11:24am:
No, thats incorrect
The Germans manufactured High-octane fuel all throuout the latter part of WW-2. It's old proven technology it's not the energy budget that throws it, it's the economic budget...it's so darn cheap to produce oil in the conventional manner that alternatives cant compete.. @ $1000 a barrel, I quit Geology and start making on my block.

Yes, I am correct!

And Yes, I am aware of the German history!

However,  they didn't have to worry about whether the EROI was Economic, they just had to have the Oil for the war.

This is also a chalk & cheese comparison, because at their peak the Germans were producing around 30-35 MILLION barrels a year and the current Global Consumption is around 85 BILLION, with rising expectations.

Those expectations will not be met!

Btw, were you also saying that the following were incorrect?

1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.
3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas".   
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!


If so, how?
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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #82 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:44pm
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #83 - Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:44pm
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:44pm:


None of which disagrees with what I have said -
1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.
3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas".   
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!


&
1) EROI makes many of these processes into an Energy sink.
In other words, it takes nearly as much Energy to produce a barrel of oil, as that barrel of Oil will generate in Energy.
There is therefore, little or no spare capacity of Energy, with which to run a Local or Global Economy, let alone the 100/1 returns that were generated earlier on, by "natural" Crude Oil!

2) Try "manufacturing" even a 10-20% shortfall in Oil and you would see what enormous problems arise.

If that wasn't daunting enough, then try manufacturing a 40-50% shortfall of say 85 Billion barrels (which will happen), which is about the current annual Global Consumption and you would quickly come to the conclusion that IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN!

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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #84 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:24am
 
Dude, you just keep posting the same thing over and over...

1)No, as a Geologist I believe that observable natural processes that can be replicated in a lab are a pretty good indication of reality. Like it or not, Oil is actually a renewable resource and all the indications are that the commonly held belief that it takes hundreds of thousands of years is incorrect.

2) I say again, the term reserve is an economic one, perhaps we will have consumed 50% of the reserves in 150 years time, at $60 a barrel...but what would the reserves look like at $150 a barrel? even if the relationship between resource and reserve was purely linear,(which it just isn't!) it would push out to 300 years and who knows what we'll be getting power from by then? maybe they'll figure out how to make thorium reactors run efficiently....

3)Look, in the early 80's oil went from $40 a barrel to $80 a barrel. therefore the reserves increased!! do you get it?? The price doubled! A reserve is a quantity of material that can be extracted for less than you can sell it (putting it simply) therefore an increase in cost results in deep wells, offshore difficult wells, politically unstable sites for wells...ect ect...becoming worth exploiting, THIS INCREASES THE RESERVES Do you understand!!?

4) WTF dude? I used that as an example of known reserves that have at current mining rates, going to be all gone in 10 years time....for the last 40 years...Its an example, as Gold becomes more valuable, lower grade deposits become viable...it's supply and demand. Exactly the same as oil.

(edit for poor spelling)
Now, I'm off to sign a lease deal...I think I'm gonna drive my V8.... Wink
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perceptions_now
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #85 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 2:31pm
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:24am:
Dude, you just keep posting the same thing over and over...

Yes, I noticed YOU are doing that and without raising any valid information!


1)No, as a Geologist I believe that observable natural processes that can be replicated in a lab are a pretty good indication of reality. Like it or not, Oil is actually a renewable resource and all the indications are that the commonly held belief that it takes hundreds of thousands of years is incorrect.

Well, I don't know about you being a geologist, but it is apparent that your reading & comprehension skills are lacking! the question you responded to above, is the question I put below, in which I plainly asked if you agreed that to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
1) As a geologist, you would be aware of the time frames, to "create Oil from natural processes", is hundreds of thousands of years.
Why you would then talk about replicated in a lab, is beyond comprehension!

What I am saying is that any none man made Oil (Natural Crude) takes hundreds of thousands of years to be formed and we have drawn down on over half of what are the supposedly known Reserves, in about 150 years!


2) I say again, the term reserve is an economic one, perhaps we will have consumed 50% of the reserves in 150 years time, at $60 a barrel...but what would the reserves look like at $150 a barrel? even if the relationship between resource and reserve was purely linear,(which it just isn't!) it would push out to 300 years and who knows what we'll be getting power from by then? maybe they'll figure out how to make thorium reactors run efficiently....
Again, the question you are responding to was -
2) Depending on who you believe, we have already Consumed over half of the worlds Reserves of Conventional Oil, in around 150 years.
Again, this is Conventional Oil (natural, not man made) & of prime consideration here is that all of the easy to get at, cheap to Produce Reserves were all found quite some time ago, so we are now forced into going into out of the way places, the cost of production is much higher and the size of newer Reserves is much smaller, irrespective of how much we spend.
And, it's not that we may consume half in the next 150 years, WE HAVE ALREADY CONSUMED HALF OF THE KNOWN NATURAL CRUDE RESERVES OVER THE LAST 150 YEARS!
In any event, Production Growth has slowed & now Peaked, which is what has driven prices higher over the last 10 years or so.

Around 1999 a barrel was about $10, it reached $147 before falling to $30 or so, now it's back over $100, but I would suggest that faltering Global Economy & a Decline in Oil Consumption will probably see Oil dip again to around $60-70 a barrel, before it starts its last march upwards to $300, $500, $1000.
Btw, we don't have 300 years, for the thorium reactor issues to be sorted out & they won't drive cars anyway!


3)Look, in the early 80's oil went from $40 a barrel to $80 a barrel. therefore the reserves increased!! do you get it?? The price doubled! A reserve is a quantity of material that can be extracted for less than you can sell it (putting it simply) therefore an increase in cost results in deep wells, offshore difficult wells, politically unstable sites for wells...ect ect...becoming worth exploiting, THIS INCREASES THE RESERVES Do you understand!!?

Again, this is responding to my question -
3) A large portion of the worlds Conventional Oil Reserves are supposedly based in OPEC countries and  those countries all arbitrarily increased their Reserves during the 1980's, purely because of jockeying for position on "export quotas". 
All I can say, is catch up on history!
THERE WERE NO NEW RESERVES DISCOVERED IN OPEC COUNTRIES, they were simply jockeying for export quotas!
DO YOU COMPREHEND?


4) WTF dude? I used that as an example of known reserves that have at current mining rates, going to be all gone in 10 years time....for the last 40 years...Its an example, as Gold becomes more valuable, lower grade deposits become viable...it's supply and demand. Exactly the same as oil.
Again this is responding to -
4) Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does!
Both Gold & Oil are growing in Price, because of the same reasoning, DEMAND IS GROWING FASTER THAN SUPPLY CAN KEEP UP!

That said, my earlier comment is still valid, "Gold doesn't fuel the Global Economy, Oil does"!


(edit for poor spelling)
Now, I'm off to sign a lease deal...I think I'm gonna drive my V8.... Wink
Btw, you do know there is a spell check?




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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #86 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:16pm
 
OH god...
you're just taking the mickey now aren't you??

seriously. Resource - Reserve...learn the difference.

OK I'll respond tomorrow, for now, I've had too many beers. Cheesy




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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #87 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:30pm
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:16pm:
OH god...
you're just taking the mickey now aren't you??
No! Why would I bother, you're doing such a good job, of doing it to yourself!


seriously. Resource - Reserve...learn the difference.
I'm happy with what I've put! But, I don't think you quite have a handle on some aspects.


OK I'll respond tomorrow, for now, I've had too many beers. Cheesy
Yeah, I was wondering, if you may have had a few?




While you are constipating on your next answer, try resolving -
What a the likely REAL global Reserves of Coventional (Natural - none man made) Oil - USED & STILL IN GROUND?

What are the likely EROI on the man made Oils and are they likely to be Energy sinks -
ie - It takes nearly as much, if not more Energy to make a barrel of Oil, than the Energy that barrel will then produce?
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topend geo
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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #88 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:26am
 
No, you are taking the mickey, I've provided you with links to articles supporting my position, you simply restate refuted arguments over and over again with no external links to articles or papers supporting your statements.

I'll type this very slowly as you seem to have comprehension difficulties (are you drunk as well?) the term reserve is an economic one! It does not reflect the actual amount of hydrocarbons in the earths crust. AT WHAT PRICE PER BARREL is the tipping point in 150 years calculated?? You don't know do you? Your spouting numbers and speculation with no evidence to back up your statements. I'm sure you're happy with what you know, because if you knew anymore, you'd see your argument is untenable! $1000 per barrel...really... If I believed that rubbish I'd go buy a thousand barrels and put em aside for retirement, have you?




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Re: The end of peak Oil.
Reply #89 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 8:54am
 
topend geo wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:26am:
No, you are taking the mickey,
I've provided you with links to articles supporting my position
, you simply restate refuted arguments over and over again with no external links to articles or papers supporting your statements.

I'll type this very slowly as you seem to have comprehension difficulties (are you drunk as well?)
the term reserve is an economic one!
It does not reflect the actual amount of hydrocarbons in the earths crust. AT WHAT PRICE PER BARREL is the tipping point in 150 years calculated?? You don't know do you? Your spouting numbers and speculation with no evidence to back up your statements. I'm sure you're happy with what you know, because if you knew anymore, you'd see your argument is untenable! $1000 per barrel...really... If I believed that rubbish I'd go buy a thousand barrels and put em aside for retirement, have you?



You are correct, someone is trying to take the mickey & that someone is YOU!

In fact, you have supplied ONE LINK, to an article on man made Oil, which I have agreed can be done, just not a the massive scales that would be required and the EROI just isn't there, so these man made Oils would be manufactured on the basis of being an Energy sink!
Btw, if you still don't understand what an Energy sink is, then try looking it up on the net?


In fact, I have previously provided numerous links, in this thread & others and if you have a mind to educate yourself, then you could spend some valuable time looking thru some of those links , including -
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1276908003/all
http://www.theoildrum.com/

Just one final thing on Reserves OR Resources and I am happy with either, it still requires an estimate of what can & or will be recoverable, bearing in mind likely technologies & whether it will be Economic to do so?

However, it also gets to the point, where technology &/or more money just don't cut the mustard and Production goes into decline on single wells, in whole fields, in entire countries and finally the whole planet!

That has happened, time after time, well after well, field after field and now to almost every country on the planet, but IF YOU SAY SO THEN HUBBERT & MANY OTHERS MUST BE WRONG?


Come and have a chat, after you've looked thru the many articles on the links I've provided.
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