Australian Politics Forum - UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories

Baronvonrort

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #60 - Feb 14^th, 2012 at 2:11pm

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

Why do you always move the goal posts when your lies are exposed...time and time again.

lol...yes I know what an agnostic is...do you? I think not.

The very term..'agnostic' means 'people who knew'.

What you posted in post #55 at 12.44 pm contradicts what you posted here after you looked it up in a dictionary

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #61 - Feb 14^th, 2012 at 2:48pm

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

You have shown your ignorance with agnostics by comparing "gnostics" with the term first used by Tom Huxley in 1869 called "agnostic".
Read this Lestat-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Henry_Huxley
Quote:

Thomas henry Huxley was an English biologist,Known as Darwin's bulldog for his advocacy of Darwin's theory of evolution

The first Agnostic,the man who invented the word believed in evolution which contradicts religion.
Your definition of agnostic is a load of codswallop i suggest you look it up in a dictionary instead of doing the muslim thing in trying to redefine words.

Actually, it is you who has shown your ignorance. So what....I suggest you take your own advice and look up the definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/agnostic

Quote:

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)
n.
1.
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

You are just contradicting your own definition of agnosotic you gave at 9.38 am,i told you to look it up

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

Einstein did not believe in the god that is found in religous holy books did he,he thought religion was all bullshit so that makes him a non believer in religion.

As I have shown you, Einstein did not believe in a God...he said so himself
Yes so why do religions try and claim he believed in fairy tales and Jinns from the holy books?

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

Lestat many people say they are atheist towards religion yet agnostic about god so are they atheist or agnostic or a combination of both?

That comment makes no sense. Who says this? You say many people...name them. Tell me, who are these nameless people.
Many people say they are atheist towards religion and agnostic about god,try google if you cannot comprehend this concept

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

In our recent census did it say tick no religion if you have no religion or were there separate boxes for atheist and agnostic?

wow...your not truly basic your whole argument on a question in the census?
Do agnostics get put in the same category of NO RELIGION as atheists?Why is this the case Lestat?

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

Would you have been happier if i said Einstein thought religion was a load of bullshit?

But you didn't say that did you? You said he was an athiest. Now...will you admit you were wrong? That he is not an athiest.
Atheist or agnsotic is pretty much the same to me they are both classed as NO RELIGION.

lol...and you wonder why no takes your Abu Sina claims seriously. hehe
Islamic website with 5 Islamic scholars says Ibn Sina was an atheist- who do you think people are going to believe on that one..LMAO .

And really...you claiming that it is I that is ignorant about agnosticism is laughable.
Read your definition of agnostic in your earlier post before you looked it up

your the douche bag that believes and has stated that agnosticism and athiesm is the same thing.
lol...really?
Both are classified as having NO RELIGION so are they the same on that?

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:13am:

Please cite where i called Saddam -Mubarek with Egypt and Iraqs muslim countries i think you have mistaken me for someone else.

I will remind you of this quote next time you bring it up....deal?
So you cannot cite anything from me is that what you are saying?

So you are critical of Islam because apparently its 'incompatible with UDHR'...yet acknowledge that a country that is a signatory has bypassed the UDHR by using loop holes.
If Cuba signs the UDHR what implications does that have for the USA?

[/quote]

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #62 - Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:12pm

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:00am:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

To now claim that agnostics and athiests are the same, which they are not, is laughable. To claim that 'Tom Huxley' came up with the term is even more laughable.

I'm not getting into the argument about Einstein. The way that God existed for Einstein is different from the way God exists for you and the way God exists for me. If we're talking about Gods with three different sets of attributes, the terms atheist and Theist don't convey much intelligence. I'd stick to Muslim in your case. "Muslim" and "Christian" are at least well defined whereas "Theist" is a bit wooly because God (Allah) outside the major religions is not adequately defined.

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

White = yes, Black = no and grey = grey. Grin

muso,

A great chart/graphical representation there.

Let me meditate upon it a little. Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lestat

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #63 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:56am

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 2:11pm:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

Why do you always move the goal posts when your lies are exposed...time and time again.

lol...yes I know what an agnostic is...do you? I think not.

The very term..'agnostic' means 'people who knew'.

What you posted in post #55 at 12.44 pm contradicts what you posted here after you looked it up in a dictionary

Apologies...was meant to be 'gnostic' means 'people who knew'....

'agnostic'..having the 'a' in front means 'people who don't know. Agnostics are not sure..some think their might be a God, some think that their is, yet they reject religon.

Whereas athiests flat out reject the concept of God. Einstien did not flat out reject the concept of God. He rejected a notion of a personal God, but does believe in the higher being...a creater. He said so many times. Yet for some reason you seem to either ignore or now know.

You see..I can admit when I am wrong. You, despite claiming that Einstien was an athiest, and despite me providing you a quote from the man himself, where he states 'I AM NOT AN ATHIEST'...despite all this, you still cannot admit you were wrong. Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.

And you still make the ludicrous claim that agnostic and athiesm is the same thing.

Whatever...your boring me now. its quite obvious that your not worthy of my time.

My work is done..I've exposed you for the cut and paste ignoramus you are. without google...your nothing but hot air.

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Lestat

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #64 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:11am

lol...

so because their both classified as 'no religon', then in your ignorant eyes this means they're the same.

Ridiculous.

Its like saying because Collingwood and Essendon both hate Carlton, then they're the same.

And yet you still ignore the fact that Einstien himself stated quite clearly 'I AM NOT AN ATHIEST'...yet mysteriously...you still insist that he is.

lol

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muso

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #65 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:12am

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 12:46pm:

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:00am:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

To now claim that agnostics and athiests are the same, which they are not, is laughable. To claim that 'Tom Huxley' came up with the term is even more laughable.

I'm not getting into the argument about Einstein. The way that God existed for Einstein is different from the way God exists for you and the way God exists for me. If we're talking about Gods with three different sets of attributes, the terms atheist and Theist don't convey much intelligence. I'd stick to Muslim in your case. "Muslim" and "Christian" are at least well defined whereas "Theist" is a bit wooly because God (Allah) outside the major religions is not adequately defined.

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

White = yes, Black = no and grey = grey. Grin

Fair enough.

Baron made the claim that Einstien was athiest. I provided a quote directly from Einstien...where he states 'I am not an athiest'.

I never claimed that Einstien believed in the same God as me...I never made any claim about what Einstien did or did not believe. It was Baron who made the claim...I corrected him.

It is he then who claims that athiesm and agnosticism is the same thing.

I know very well the difference between the two. He does not (though I suspect he does, he is just struggling to admit he was wrong).

I have many friends who are agnostics. They believe in a God, don't really know what His nature is, etc, etc..but they believe there is, in their words 'something out there'. They reject religon completely. They are agnostics.

I know others who completely reject the concept of God. Don't believe in any God, or higher being at all. They are athiests.

As I said earlier...to claim that someone who believes in a God is an athiest is ludicrous.

And he has the gual to claim I don't know what agnosticism is. lol

Well, I only believe in a totally demystified God. God for me is the macro-neural network that makes up humanity. We communicate via voice, internet, body language and various media. "God" has real power that is "supernatural" only as far as the nature of life itself is not fully understood. I know that particular "god" exists, because I have seen it in action.

I also have a second 'god', which is a very basic non-interventionist Deist style god, necessary as a prime reference and first cause only. I don't know if that can be described as having a personality or some basic characteristics that enabled the current universe to come into existence. I am pretty sure that the first "God" only exists within the context of a human population.

Some would call me an atheist. Don't bother criticising my position. For me, it's just a first order hypothesis. I posted it to provide an example of an atheistic theist. Anybody can define a god or gods according to their beliefs or experience. To say that only organised religions can do that is absurd.

Your highlighted statement is only true with respect to a God that is characterised from a particular world view or religion. I think that's your intention anyway, because the word "God" for you has meaning within the framework of your religion.

By the way, I'm not necessarily addressing specific points that you or anybody else makes. I'm just adding to the discussion.

By the way gnostic also has a historical pretext. "Gnostics" belonged to a specific religious sect, but I'm guessing that you knew that already.

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« Last Edit: Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:23am by muso »

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muso

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #66 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:21am

Yadda wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:00am:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

To now claim that agnostics and athiests are the same, which they are not, is laughable. To claim that 'Tom Huxley' came up with the term is even more laughable.

I'm not getting into the argument about Einstein. The way that God existed for Einstein is different from the way God exists for you and the way God exists for me. If we're talking about Gods with three different sets of attributes, the terms atheist and Theist don't convey much intelligence. I'd stick to Muslim in your case. "Muslim" and "Christian" are at least well defined whereas "Theist" is a bit wooly because God (Allah) outside the major religions is not adequately defined.

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

White = yes, Black = no and grey = grey. Grin

muso,

A great chart/graphical representation there.

Let me meditate upon it a little. Wink

Nah - you'll just draw a large circle around the lot and call it God.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #67 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 8:48am

Quote:

American voters, politicians & soldiers are all secular atheists then are they?

The fact is that the US is one of the most religious Christian countries in the world. There 90 million Evangelical Christians in the US. Nearly 1 in 3 voters in the US are fanatical Evangelicals.

To say that the actions of the US government do not reflect their Christian values is absurd.

By those rules, the governments of most middle eastern countries are therefore Muslim, and Islam is to blame for all the actions of the government, military and citizens

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Baronvonrort

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #68 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 9:54am

Lestat wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 7:56am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 2:11pm:

Lestat wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 9:38am:

Why do you always move the goal posts when your lies are exposed...time and time again.

lol...yes I know what an agnostic is...do you? I think not.

The very term..'agnostic' means 'people who knew'.

What you posted in post #55 at 12.44 pm contradicts what you posted here after you looked it up in a dictionary

Apologies...was meant to be 'gnostic' means 'people who knew'....

'agnostic'..having the 'a' in front means 'people who don't know. Agnostics are not sure..some think their might be a God, some think that their is, yet they reject religon.

Whereas athiests flat out reject the concept of God. Einstien did not flat out reject the concept of God. He rejected a notion of a personal God, but does believe in the higher being...a creater. He said so many times. Yet for some reason you seem to either ignore or now know.

You see..I can admit when I am wrong. You, despite claiming that Einstien was an athiest, and despite me providing you a quote from the man himself, where he states 'I AM NOT AN ATHIEST'...despite all this, you still cannot admit you were wrong. Arrogance and ignorance is a dangerous combination.

And you still make the ludicrous claim that agnostic and athiesm is the same thing.

Whatever...your boring me now. its quite obvious that your not worthy of my time.

My work is done..I've exposed you for the cut and paste ignoramus you are. without google...your nothing but hot air.

I suggest you research "Gnostic" your idiocy is showing.

I think the term "NO Religion" is a better way of describing agnostics and atheists to ignorant muslims who cannot comprehend the concept that someone can be atheist towards religion and agnostic about a god.

Atheists and agnostics dont really care about what stage of disbelief they are at or if they change the title of their disbelief they will not start chopping each others heads off like muslims do when an apostate leaves Islam.

Atheists disbelieve in god because religion has put a piss poor case that is seriously flawed for god to exist.

Agnostics dont believe in the god that is found in religious texts because religions have put a piss poor case that is seriously flawed for the case of god.

When it comes to the lack of evidence supplied by religions to back their case for god both atheists and agnostics have a comon ground here and the burden of proof for god lies with those who are promoting the concept of god.

Atheists and agnostics have No religion because the religions have failed to prove their case for god and without evidence they will never be religious.
On this point atheists and agnostics are the same in rejecting religion.

Christians try to redefine atheism into God does not exist which is naughty and then it puts the burden of proof onto atheists to prove god does not exist.
Atheism is disbelief in God which means the religons have failed to prove their case for god.

Leading scientists still reject god
The National academy of sciences surveyed their members.
93% do not believe in god
7% do believe in God.
That is less than 1 in 10 members who believe in god ,who would be the odd one out in that group Lestat?
If science is compatible with religion then why do the majority of scientists reject religion?
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Yadda

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #69 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 12:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Leading scientists still reject god
The National academy of sciences surveyed their members.
93% do not believe in god
7% do believe in God.

That is less than 1 in 10 members who believe in god ,who would be the odd one out in that group Lestat?

If science is compatible with religion then why do the majority of scientists reject religion?

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

I didn't realise that 'scientifically', truth or reality is always determined by the opinion of a majority of people. Tongue

So, a truth is always 'confirmed', by what a majority says that a truth is ?

Majority opinion is always correct ?

So if one hundred people say that the world is flat;

And one person says that the earth is a globe;

Then the hundred people are correct.

Coz their collective intellect reflects the combined intellect of 100 persons, and they they therefore must be correct ?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #70 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 4:03pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 12:26pm:

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:44am:

[quote author=0023302D2C342D2C302D3036420 link=1328644868/51#51 date=1329183553][quote author=4B535549260 link=1328644868/49#49 date=1329181226]

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

Atheist is disbelief in the existence of god (as defined in holy books,who else defines god?) it has nothing to do with belief.

h

You're reading it wrong. (sigh) If it's black, it means "No" to Belief or knowledge. (aka as you said, nothing to do with belief in God) So in other words "Do you believe in God?" - if "no" - you're an atheist.

- but I've seen these stupid semantics-based arguments that people come up with regarding "belief in a non-belief", so I see where you're coming from.

I don't see why it should be so complicated.

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« Last Edit: Feb 15^th, 2012 at 4:14pm by muso »

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muso

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #71 - Feb 15^th, 2012 at 4:12pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Leading scientists still reject god
The National academy of sciences surveyed their members.
93% do not believe in god
7% do believe in God.
That is less than 1 in 10 members who believe in god ,who would be the odd one out in that group Lestat?
If science is compatible with religion then why do the majority of scientists reject religion?

- but aren't scientists part of some worldwide conspiracy? They're reptilians, along with other climate scientists. (Didn't you know?) Are you saying that you trust them now?

IMHO it doesn't matter if 8 out of 10 dentists don't recommend God. It's a question of personal taste and judgement.

Without doing the survey, I'd hazard a guess that all Iranian scientists are Muslim too. They also drink their tea with rose petals. The latter is more of a cause for alarm than the former.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories
Reply #72 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 8:39am

muso wrote on Feb 15^th, 2012 at 4:03pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 12:26pm:

muso wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 11:44am:

[quote author=0023302D2C342D2C302D3036420 link=1328644868/51#51 date=1329183553][quote author=4B535549260 link=1328644868/49#49 date=1329181226]

Here is a chart that I find useful. Agnostic is centred on knowledge and atheist is centred on belief - not that I use such terms much myself.

Atheist is disbelief in the existence of god (as defined in holy books,who else defines god?) it has nothing to do with belief.

h

You're reading it wrong. (sigh) If it's black, it means "No" to Belief or knowledge. (aka as you said, nothing to do with belief in God) So in other words "Do you believe in God?" - if "no" - you're an atheist.

- but I've seen these stupid semantics-based arguments that people come up with regarding "belief in a non-belief", so I see where you're coming from.

I don't see why it should be so complicated.

With Lestat showing his ignorance of agnostics i think it is better to use the term "No Religion" if you have no religion with muslims,it spells out where people stand on religion without getting sidetracked on other issues of non belief.

At least the christians grasp the concept of atheist-agnostic.

If Lestat ventured into the atheist section he might see a thread on Pakistani atheists and agnostics website,which indicates they are aligned when it comes to religion.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49963 At my desk.	Re: UK Papers Fake Muslim Stories Reply #73 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 8:51am Falah's article in his opening post does not say anything either. Only one vague example was given that relates to immigrants in general. The journalist appears to admit to taking Abu's approach to percieved distortions from others - to respond by deliberately distorting yourself.
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