Australian Politics Forum - 'Honour' killings

Grey

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'Honour' killings
Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:54am

The tragic murder of three young women and their mother in Canada highlights again the Misogyny of Islam.

http://pjmedia.com/blog/guilty-muslim-family-in-canada-convicted-in-honor-killin...

Quote:

Samira Kanji, president of the Noor Cultural Centre in Toronto, warned against "focusing unduly" on offended honor as the motive for the slaying of the four women and girls, saying that "honor or not, it's a murder and it's going to be treated as murder" by the courts. She claimed that the slayings are a breach of Islamic ethics, while she criticized the judge presiding in the case for having said that the verdict is a clear transmission of "Canadian values." She said, "I don't think the value of life is uniquely Canadian or uniquely Western — I think it's a universal value." Kanji said. "To that extent, his putting it in those terms was problematic."

http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=71788

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #1 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:57am

Quote:

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

What to do, what to do? We can't stop importing them because western societies are enriched so much by their presenece, and we can't force them to assimilate because that would imply that our 'western' values are superior to theirs.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it. Cry

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Grey

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #2 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:57am:

Quote:

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

What to do, what to do? We can't stop importing them because western societies are enriched so much by their presenece, and we can't force them to assimilate because that would imply that our 'western' values are superior to theirs.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it. Cry

We don't have much to be smug about Honky. In Australia an averahe of 27 children a year are murdered by their parents. In the vast majority of cases it's men killing their children because the relationship failed. Is that more understandable than refusing to wear a hadjib?

We shouldn't blame all men because some are worse than stupid. We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act. That includes accepting that if it's alright for christians to become Muslims then it's alright for Muslims to become Christians or Atheists.

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #3 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:49am

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:57am:

Quote:

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

What to do, what to do? We can't stop importing them because western societies are enriched so much by their presenece, and we can't force them to assimilate because that would imply that our 'western' values are superior to theirs.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it. Cry

We don't have much to be smug about Honky. In Australia an averahe of 27 children a year are murdered by their parents. In the vast majority of cases it's men killing their children because the relationship failed. Is that more understandable than refusing to wear a hadjib?

We shouldn't blame all men because some are worse than stupid. We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act. That includes accepting that if it's alright for christians to become Muslims then it's alright for Muslims to become Christians or Atheists.

How many more people have to die while the "imams" sit and twiddle their thumbs?

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In the fullness of time...

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Soren

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #4 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:05pm

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:57am:

Quote:

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

What to do, what to do? We can't stop importing them because western societies are enriched so much by their presenece, and we can't force them to assimilate because that would imply that our 'western' values are superior to theirs.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it. Cry

We don't have much to be smug about Honky. In Australia an averahe of 27 children a year are murdered by their parents. In the vast majority of cases it's men killing their children because the relationship failed. Is that more understandable than refusing to wear a hadjib?

We shouldn't blame all men because some are worse than stupid. We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act. That includes accepting that if it's alright for christians to become Muslims then it's alright for Muslims to become Christians or Atheists.

Anyone who even hints in court at their 'cultural differences' as in any was mitigating or excusing or explaining their crimes should have his sentence doubled for being a fooking cheeky bastard.

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #5 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:10pm

Quote:

Demographic differences in intimate partner homicides havealso been noted. Racial disparity is one example. Research in the United States reports that minority populations consistently record higher rates of both homicide victimisation and offending (Fingerhut & Kleinman1990; Hawkins 1999). Despite Indigenous persons representing just over two per cent of the total Australian population, they account for just under a quarter of the intimate partner homicides (as both victims and offenders).Previous research on IndigenousAustralian homicide finds that these homicides are quite different from non-Indigenous homicides in that they very rarely occur between strangers, and mostly involve family members, usually intimate partners.

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/9/C/B/%7B9CBFDFE5-F9B2-4FEB-A14A-3166810B564F%7D...

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falah

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #6 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:20pm

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:54am:

The tragic murder of three young women and their mother in Canada highlights again the Misogyny of Islam.

The murderers were from the small Shi-ite sect, and were not Orthodox Muslims. Some of their victims were from Sunni Orthodox famlies. During the trial their animosity of the Shi-ites towards the Sunni Muslims became clear when the court was told how th ringleader would curse the Sunni victim's father 100's of times (it is part of Shi-ite religion to curse Sunni Muslims)

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Baronvonrort

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #7 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:24pm

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:57am:

Quote:

No the problem is women being murdered for adopting western values in western countries. The problem is too much stone age thinking in a major religion of the 21st C.

What to do, what to do? We can't stop importing them because western societies are enriched so much by their presenece, and we can't force them to assimilate because that would imply that our 'western' values are superior to theirs.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to grin and bear it. Cry

We don't have much to be smug about Honky. In Australia an averahe of 27 children a year are murdered by their parents. In the vast majority of cases it's men killing their children because the relationship failed. Is that more understandable than refusing to wear a hadjib?

We shouldn't blame all men because some are worse than stupid. We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act. That includes accepting that if it's alright for christians to become Muslims then it's alright for Muslims to become Christians or Atheists.

How many more people have to die while the "imams" sit and twiddle their thumbs?

Do you expect the imams to speak out about this?
Would it be considered blasphemy for a muslim to speak out against Islam?

The death penalty for blasphemy protects the Islamic meme from being corrupted.

Islam cannot be reformed,in sura 5:3 it says Islam has been perfected so why would muslims want to reform it?
http://quran.com/5/3

Do some homework on the Ahmadi muslims and see how they are persecuted by mainstream Islam for doing a little reform here and there.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Grey

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #8 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:40pm

... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:10pm:

Quote:

Demographic differences in intimate partner homicides havealso been noted. Racial disparity is one example. Research in the United States reports that minority populations consistently record higher rates of both homicide victimisation and offending (Fingerhut & Kleinman1990; Hawkins 1999). Despite Indigenous persons representing just over two per cent of the total Australian population, they account for just under a quarter of the intimate partner homicides (as both victims and offenders).Previous research on IndigenousAustralian homicide finds that these homicides are quite different from non-Indigenous homicides in that they very rarely occur between strangers, and mostly involve family members, usually intimate partners.

http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/9/C/B/%7B9CBFDFE5-F9B2-4FEB-A14A-3166810B564F%7D...

Oppressed people, high on alchol, glue and or other drugs, behave very badly shock. But is that on topic?

How many more children have to die while the priests and vicars beat up the 'sanctity of marriage'?

It's no good criticising Muslims while wearing blinkers.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #9 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:48pm

Quote:

We shouldn't blame all men because some are worse than stupid. We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act. That includes accepting that if it's alright for christians to become Muslims then it's alright for Muslims to become Christians or Atheists.

You are right on the money, Grey.

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falah

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #10 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act.

If you look at global murder statistics, "honour" killings are extremely rare.

Murder is clearly forbidden in islam, and so-called "honour" killings are not considered anything other than sinful and dishonourable by the overwhelming majority of Muslims - including the religious scholars and imams.

Fatwa on honour killings by Saudi Islamic Scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

Killing a Muslim unlawfully is a serious matter and a grave crime. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of God are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him”

[al-Nisa’ 4:93]

al-Bukhaari (6355) narrated from Ibn ‘Umar ) that the Prophet of God (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “The believer will continue to be encompassed by the mercy of God so long as he does not shed blood that it is forbidden to shed.”...

...that which is called “honour killing” is a transgression and wrongdoing, because it is killing one who does not deserve to be killed, namely the maiden if she performs fornication...

...The one who kills her has killed a believing soul whom God has forbidden to be killed, and there is a stern warning concerning that, as God, may He be glorified and exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning of the Quran):

“...And those who invoke not any other deity along with God, nor kill such person as God has forbidden.... -and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Judgement, and he will abide therein (the afterlife) in disgrace”

[ al-Furqan (The Criteria) 25, v.68-69]

Imams condemn honour killings

More than 30 North American imams have signed a fatwa condemning honour killings, after a Canadian court convicted Afghan immigrants of murdering four women relatives who had supposedly damaged the family's reputation.

''There is no justification for honour killings, domestic violence and misogyny in Islam,'' said the religious order issued by the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada and signed by 34 imams from Canada and the US.

Such violence, including spousal abuse and child abuse in all forms, is ''forbidden'', it said. ''The relationship between the husband and wife is based upon mutual love and kindness.''...

http://www.smh.com.au/world/imams-condemn-honour-killings-20120205-1qzt0.html

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Grey

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #11 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:58pm

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:20pm:

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 10:54am:

The tragic murder of three young women and their mother in Canada highlights again the Misogyny of Islam.

The murderers were from the small Shi-ite sect, and were not Orthodox Muslims. Some of their victims were from Sunni Orthodox famlies. During the trial their animosity of the Shi-ites towards the Sunni Muslims became clear when the court was told how th ringleader would curse the Sunni victim's father 100's of times (it is part of Shi-ite religion to curse Sunni Muslims)

I don't know where you get that idea Falah. These were all members of the same family, both murderers and murdered. none of the other Muslim voices raises this issue, they blame country hicks.

Quote:

Syed Soharwardy, an imam who founded the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada, said that "honor killings" are explicitly condemned in the Qur'an, but claimed that such prohibitions do not take root in remote regions of Muslim-majority countries.

We know that such 'Honour killings' take place across the Muslim world in areas as diverse as Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Sudan, Iraq, Palestine, Jordan, Lebabon and Egypt. Hardly fits the notion of a small unorthdox sect?

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: 'Honour' killings
Reply #12 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:06pm

falah wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 12:49pm:

Grey wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 11:29am:

We shouldn't blame all Muslims for honour murders. but we should keep up the pressure for Imams to talk against this behaviour before, rather than after the act.

If you look at global murder statistics, "honour" killings are extremely rare.

Murder is clearly forbidden in islam, and so-called "honour" killings are not considered anything other than sinful and dishonourable by the overwhelming majority of Muslims - including the religious scholars and imams.

Falah, I agree that they are haram, but not that they are as rare as you say. And even if honour killings were rare, what about other violence committed (wrongly) against women and girls in the name of Islam. What about female circumcision and forced marriages?

I know they're haram and you know they're haram, but there are plenty of Muslims who believe that it is halal to force their daughters into marriage or mutilate them. A lot of these people wouldn't be able to read the Quran for themselves - it is important for the Imams to speak out louder.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: 'Honour' killings Reply #13 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:06pm Quote: How many more children have to die while the priests and vicars beat up the 'sanctity of marriage'? Please explaaaaaain?
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: 'Honour' killings Reply #14 - Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:12pm ... wrote on Feb 7^th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Quote: How many more children have to die while the priests and vicars beat up the 'sanctity of marriage'? Please explaaaaaain? Well it's not hard to work out Honky. I'd rather you applied yourself to working this out on your own.
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