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The Green's argument for no punishment? (Read 3868 times)
Maqqa
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The Green's argument for no punishment?
Feb 7th, 2012 at 8:59am
 
http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/article/12829057/end-5-year-jail-for-asylum-...

The Australian Greens plan to introduce legislation to remove the mandatory minimum five-year sentence for crews of people-smuggling boats.

Crews are not themselves people smugglers, the party argues.

Instead they were poor Indonesian fishermen who had been tricked to crew boats.

"Often with no idea about what they were doing or where they were going," Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young told reporters in Canberra on Tuesday.

"While we're concentrating on those people, the people smugglers are getting off scot-free.

It was an issue the federal government did not want to talk about, preferring to give the impression resources were targeting people smugglers.

"We know that the Australian courts are full of hundreds of poor Indonesian fishermen and not the kingpins of the people-smuggling trade," Senator Hanson-Young said.

"So we need to fix that system to really have a good go at changing how very vulnerable people ... are being manipulated by this process."
The Greens say they will introduce draft laws to parliament's upper house this week.
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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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Maqqa
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #1 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:06am
 
The parties to this sorry tale are as follows:

(1) Paying Passengers

(2) People Smugglers

(3) Crew


Greens don't want us to punish anyone other than the People Smugglers who they don't know exist and if they do exist no one seems to know who or where they are.

The Passengers create the demand and pay the money.

The Crew gets money to ferry over the Passengers. The Greens claim that the Crew would not know they were people smuggling.

hhmmmm

when you step on a boat standing room only - where did the Crew think they were going? FISHING????

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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #2 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:08am
 
Is she dumb or sumpin.
Laws are there to give disincentives for making choices. The indonesians will hear in time that if they do take those foreigners to Australia, they will get 5 years gaol.

The crew are not entirely innocent regardless of what this dummy greens member says.
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« Last Edit: Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:19am by progressiveslol »  
 
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #3 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:13am
 
Indonesian children in Australian prisons


An Indonesian youth, Hadi Kurniawan, imprisoned on charges of people-smuggling, has drawn attention to the Australian government and legal system’s brazen disregard for human rights. Kurniawan’s case came to light almost by accident. Two refugee rights activists, Gerry Georgatos and Victoria Martin-Iverson, met Kurniawan at the Perth Immigration Detention Centre in January. They had no idea at that time that he would be sent to prison.

Georgatos in his line of work informs prisoners of their options to education. He is a regular visitor to Hakea Correctional Facility in WA. During one of his February visits, he learned that Kurniawan had been arrested by the Australian Federal Police and was being held there. He subsequently arranged a visit to him.

Under the Migration Act, if someone connected with “illegal” immigration is under the age of 19, they are normally returned to their country of origin, which in Kurniawan’s case is Indonesia. Kurniawan told Georgatos that he was 16 and that he had been in Australia since April 2010, when he arrived on a boat with 30 Iraqi and Hazara asylum seekers. The navy took the asylum seekers to Christmas Island. Kurniawan stayed there for a week before he was transferred to Darwin Immigration Centre, where he contracted tuberculosis. He was detained for 10 months until being flown to Perth, where he was being treated as an outpatient at Royal Perth Hospital. It was during this time that Georgatos and Martin-Inverson met Kurniawan.

Railroaded
The AFP have not accepted his date of birth, but have not performed the most basic checks. They did not notify Indonesian consular officials of his presence nor did they seek their assistance in determining Kurniawan’s age. Instead the AFP used a wrist-bone scan to determine his age. This technique, established in Australia during the 1950s, is widely discredited. It involves comparing X-rays with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s. It doesn’t take into account that Indonesian children are often working by the time they are 13 and that their wrists therefore show more wear and tear.

As a result, Kurniawan has been locked up in a maximum security prison. This is not simply a misunderstanding. The Australian government has consciously locked up children as it seeks to scapegoat the most vulnerable. It desperately wants to conjure up an enemy out of the impoverished masses of the developing world to deflect attention from its neoliberal agenda. That’s why former prime minister Kevin Rudd described “people-smugglers” as “the vilest form of human life” and said “they should rot in hell”.

Most people engaged in transferring asylum seekers to Australia are poor Indonesian fishermen who get paid a miserly sum. Serving as deckhands or cooks, they face a mandatory prison sentence of five years if they are caught. Many of them do not know that they are doing anything unlawful.

No doubt aware that Georgatos was seeking Kurniawan’s release, Hakea security blocked his visits, which were not reinstated until the case became public. Georgatos contacted the Indonesian consulate, which confirmed Kurniawan’s age. It called his family, who stated that Kurniawan was born in 1995. Georgatos contacted every parliamentarian - ALP, Coalition, independent and Greens - in WA and Australia that the case would have been relevant to, but none responded. Of 76 senators, not one would raise questions about Indonesian minors in Australian prisons.

Even Kurniawan’s legal aid lawyer was not interested in determining his age, which could have been verified by contacting the Indonesian consulate and his family. The whole legal process has been a shambles and appears manipulated from the start. The government wants convictions to show it is “tough” on people-smugglers, but seeks to rush cases like Kurniawan’s through the courts as quickly as possible, so it is not exposed for locking up children.

Publicity
Frustrated with the whole spectrum of parliamentary politicians, Georgatos contacted Indonesian media outlets including the Jakarta Post and Radio Elshinta as well as Indonesian human rights advocates. Eko Waluyo, an Indonesian human rights activist in Sydney, made the case known to more of the Indonesian media and also contacted the Indonesian Foreign Affairs Ministry.

Eventually the mainstream media picked up the story, and the West Australian’s Steve Pennells, recognising its significance, flew to Indonesia to meet members of the family and secure hard evidence of Kurniawan’s age. This was not easy, because most poor people in Indonesia do not have paperwork or any knowledge of how to obtain it. Kurniawan’s family live in extreme poverty, and documents that would have proved his age in Australian courts were either never issued or were destroyed when their riverbed home in Sulawesi was washed away.

According to information supplied by his  family, Kurniawan graduated from junior high school, the equivalent of our year 9, in 2009, which would have put him at 14 years of age. Kurniawan moved to Java to live a with a relative while seeking work in construction. Three months later, the relative died. Out of desperation, he took a position as a cook on a boat headed to Australia. His family did not know what had happened to him and feared the worst. They first heard from Kurniawan after he was arrested, charged and sent to Hakea.

Many more cases
Kurniawan’s case is only the tip of the iceberg: there may be 60 Indonesian children locked up in Australian prisons. Neither is this a recent occurrence. Two years ago, a 14-year-old Indonesian boy served 12 months in an Australian adult prison and was released only when the magistrate sighted his certified Indonesian birth certificate. Refugee rights activists are aware of children being held in Bankstown prison as well as prisons in Melbourne.

Three children - 15-year-old Ose Lani and 16-year-olds John Ndollu and Ako Lan - were held in Brisbane’s Arthur Gorrie prison for more than 14 months. Again, the AFP relied on dodgy wrist scans to determine their age and made no attempt to contact their families. These children are from a poor fishing village in West Timor. Albert Lani, the father of Ose Lani, said: “The three boys went fishing one day and never returned … we thought they had been lost at sea.”

They were held in a detention centre in Darwin until January of this year. The boys were tricked into crewing the ships, being offered up to $500 but never receiving such payments. On June 16, they were finally released, pending an age hearing that would take into account more evidence to determine their ages. The charges were then dropped without explanation. This case was an exception because their lawyer did what no other lawyer has done, contacting the families and seeking documentary evidence of their age. Many Indonesian children imprisoned in Australia see their lawyer for the first time in court.

The United Nations child protection agency UNICEF has warned that dental and skeletal tests should not be relied upon to determine the age of children, and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says if the exact age is uncertain, the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

This whole case shows how politically motivated the actions of the AFP are and how unjust the whole judicial system is.

The government knows what it is doing is morally wrong and unlawful. In internal documents, the Immigration Department has reportedly questioned the use of X-rays, saying that they are “not an accurate determiner of chronological age”. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child - to which Australia is a signatory - declares that children under 18 must be jailed only as a last resort for the shortest possible time, and that all actions of governments must be in the best interests of the child.

According to Gerry Georgatos, “Gillard and Bowen and the whole of the ALP have not only breached Australia’s commitment to the Convention on the Rights of the Child; they have shattered it”.

http://directaction.org.au/issue34/indonesian_children_in_australian_prisons
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #4 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:15am
 
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #5 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:17am
 
I take it she has been to Java and watched this all happen first hand... or is she guessing???...

poor innocent fishermen.. how many have they got do you think???..seems to me someone is lining up to sell them these boats..

I can only guess the people that the fishermen use to feed are now dying of starvation...I mean how many boats at the bottom of the ocean now...or isnt she counting them???..

maybe she hasnt heard of OUR laws that say accessory after the fact... why does she think the families that sell the boats allow their kids to man them???????..

god shes thick..

I truly get the feeling this party is unaustralian it constantly finds fault with everything the govts do... and panders left right and centre to minority groups..that appear to have more say in what goes on in this country than the taxpayers do.

I dont care if these people get 5 years..serves them right.. just like it serves the Bali 9 right for getting 20 years for drug smuggling... they knew the laws of the land.
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #6 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:17am
 
____ wrote on Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:13am:
Indonesian children in Australian prisons


An Indonesian youth, Hadi Kurniawan, imprisoned on charges of people-smuggling, has drawn attention to the Australian government and legal system’s brazen disregard for human rights. Kurniawan’s case came to light almost by accident. Two refugee rights activists, Gerry Georgatos and Victoria Martin-Iverson, met Kurniawan at the Perth Immigration Detention Centre in January. They had no idea at that time that he would be sent to prison.

Georgatos in his line of work informs prisoners of their options to education. He is a regular visitor to Hakea Correctional Facility in WA. During one of his February visits, he learned that Kurniawan had been arrested by the Australian Federal Police and was being held there. He subsequently arranged a visit to him.

Under the Migration Act, if someone connected with “illegal” immigration is under the age of 19, they are normally returned to their country of origin, which in Kurniawan’s case is Indonesia. Kurniawan told Georgatos that he was 16 and that he had been in Australia since April 2010, when he arrived on a boat with 30 Iraqi and Hazara asylum seekers. The navy took the asylum seekers to Christmas Island. Kurniawan stayed there for a week before he was transferred to Darwin Immigration Centre, where he contracted tuberculosis. He was detained for 10 months until being flown to Perth, where he was being treated as an outpatient at Royal Perth Hospital. It was during this time that Georgatos and Martin-Inverson met Kurniawan.

Railroaded
The AFP have not accepted his date of birth, but have not performed the most basic checks. They did not notify Indonesian consular officials of his presence nor did they seek their assistance in determining Kurniawan’s age. Instead the AFP used a wrist-bone scan to determine his age. This technique, established in Australia during the 1950s, is widely discredited. It involves comparing X-rays with those taken from a sample of largely white middle-class children in the United States in the 1930s. It doesn’t take into account that Indonesian children are often working by the time they are 13 and that their wrists therefore show more wear and tear.

As a result, Kurniawan has been locked up in a maximum security prison. This is not simply a misunderstanding. The Australian government has consciously locked up children as it seeks to scapegoat the most vulnerable. It desperately wants to conjure up an enemy out of the impoverished masses of the developing world to deflect attention from its neoliberal agenda. That’s why former prime minister Kevin Rudd described “people-smugglers” as “the vilest form of human life” and said “they should rot in hell”.

Most people engaged in transferring asylum seekers to Australia are poor Indonesian fishermen who get paid a miserly sum. Serving as deckhands or cooks, they face a mandatory prison sentence of five years if they are caught. Many of them do not know that they are doing anything unlawful.

No doubt aware that Georgatos was seeking Kurniawan’s release, Hakea security blocked his visits, which were not reinstated until the case became public. Georgatos contacted the Indonesian consulate, which confirmed Kurniawan’s age. It called his family, who stated that Kurniawan was born in 1995. Georgatos contacted every parliamentarian - ALP, Coalition, independent and Greens - in WA and Australia that the case would have been relevant to, but none responded. Of 76 senators, not one would raise questions about Indonesian minors in Australian prisons.

Even Kurniawan’s legal aid lawyer was not interested in determining his age, which could have been verified by contacting the Indonesian consulate and his family. The whole legal process has been a shambles and appears manipulated from the start. The government wants convictions to show it is “tough” on people-smugglers, but seeks to rush cases like Kurniawan’s through the courts as quickly as possible, so it is not exposed for locking up children.

Publicity
Frustrated with the whole spectrum of parliamentary politicians, Georgatos contacted Indonesian media outlets including the Jakarta Post and Radio Elshinta as well as Indonesian human rights advocates. Eko Waluyo, an Indonesian human rights activist in Sydney, made the case known to more of the Indonesian media and also contacted the Indonesian Foreign Affairs Ministry.

Eventually the mainstream media picked up the story, and the West Australian’s Steve Pennells, recognising its significance, flew to Indonesia to meet members of the family and secure hard evidence of Kurniawan’s age. This was not easy, because most poor people in Indonesia do not have paperwork or any knowledge of how to obtain it. Kurniawan’s family live in extreme poverty, and documents that would have proved his age in Australian courts were either never issued or were destroyed when their riverbed home in Sulawesi was washed away.

According to information supplied by his  family, Kurniawan graduated from junior high school, the equivalent of our year 9, in 2009, which would have put him at 14 years of age. Kurniawan moved to Java to live a with a relative while seeking work in construction. Three months later, the relative died. Out of desperation, he took a position as a cook on a boat headed to Australia. His family did not know what had happened to him and feared the worst. They first heard from Kurniawan after he was arrested, charged and sent to Hakea.

Many more cases
Kurniawan’s case is only the tip of the iceberg: there may be 60 Indonesian children locked up in Australian prisons. Neither is this a recent occurrence. Two years ago, a 14-year-old Indonesian boy served 12 months in an Australian adult prison and was released only when the magistrate sighted his certified Indonesian birth certificate. Refugee rights activists are aware of children being held in Bankstown prison as well as prisons in Melbourne.

Three children - 15-year-old Ose Lani and 16-year-olds John Ndollu and Ako Lan - were held in Brisbane’s Arthur Gorrie prison for more than 14 months. Again, the AFP relied on dodgy wrist scans to determine their age and made no attempt to contact their families. These children are from a poor fishing village in West Timor. Albert Lani, the father of Ose Lani, said: “The three boys went fishing one day and never returned … we thought they had been lost at sea.”

They were held in a detention centre in Darwin until January of this year. The boys were tricked into crewing the ships, being offered up to $500 but never receiving such payments. On June 16, they were finally released, pending an age hearing that would take into account more evidence to determine their ages. The charges were then dropped without explanation. This case was an exception because their lawyer did what no other lawyer has done, contacting the families and seeking documentary evidence of their age. Many Indonesian children imprisoned in Australia see their lawyer for the first time in court.

The United Nations child protection agency UNICEF has warned that dental and skeletal tests should not be relied upon to determine the age of children, and recommends that assessments be made by interviewers who know the language and country of origin of a child. The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says if the exact age is uncertain, the child should be given the benefit of the doubt.

This whole case shows how politically motivated the actions of the AFP are and how unjust the whole judicial system is.

The government knows what it is doing is morally wrong and unlawful. In internal documents, the Immigration Department has reportedly questioned the use of X-rays, saying that they are “not an accurate determiner of chronological age”. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child - to which Australia is a signatory - declares that children under 18 must be jailed only as a last resort for the shortest possible time, and that all actions of governments must be in the best interests of the child.

According to Gerry Georgatos, “Gillard and Bowen and the whole of the ALP have not only breached Australia’s commitment to the Convention on the Rights of the Child; they have shattered it”.

http://directaction.org.au/issue34/indonesian_children_in_australian_prisons

The shortest possible time is 5 years and the last resort is gaol.
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #7 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 9:34am
 
What we need to be debating is not a parents right to discipline their child, but the right of the Political class to discipline us and use illegal force against us to violate the Sovereignty of our minds and free will.  That is the real issue here - the Political class is fighting for something they have no right to and that is to be sovereign and Lord over our lives. Cool
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #8 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 11:24am
 
It is an offence to transport people into Australia who dont have a visa.
The government will seize your boat and it will be forfeited.

The Greens are just as much to blame as labor on this issue with putting the people smugglers back into business.

Rudd dismantled a policy that stopped the boats,Julia cannot fix it because her partners in crime the Greens have an open door policy on border security.

The Greens are happy to import welfare bludgers who the government's own statistics say  83.5% are still on centrelink after 5 years.

I wonder what % of these people will still be on centrelink benefits after 10 years?

The greens want to piss up our tax dollars like a bunch of drunken sailors giving handouts to dole bludgers.

Labor is gone at the next election  and so are the Greens.
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #9 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:02pm
 
The Political class needs to be stopped from abusing the power of the state to control our lives in the home and from illegally abusing the power of the state to threaten our social and economic security.  There are no dole bludgers there is only the political class trying to abuse the power of the state to illegally violate our free will.  The state has no right to control people through economic cvorruption, it hasd no right - the political class tries to play us through the ALP, the Coalition and the Greens, but the object of their strategy is the same, to illegally use force against us to rob us of our freedom and economic rights.  To the Political and Corporate class - we will not bow down and worship your gods and you have no right to abuse the power of the state against us - you have no legal right. Cool
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #10 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:19pm
 
corporate_whitey wrote on Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:02pm:
The Political class needs to be stopped from abusing the power of the state to control our lives in the home and from illegally abusing the power of the state to threaten our social and economic security.  There are no dole bludgers there is only the political class trying to abuse the power of the state to illegally violate our free will.  The state has no right to control people through economic cvorruption, it hasd no right - the political class tries to play us through the ALP, the Coalition and the Greens, but the object of their strategy is the same, to illegally use force against us to rob us of our freedom and economic rights.  To the Political and Corporate class - we will not bow down and worship your gods and you have no right to abuse the power of the state against us - you have no legal right. Cool



But you do want the government to be involved in your life to determine that you are eligible for ...er... government largesse.
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #11 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:46pm
 
Quote:
god shes thick..

I truly get the feeling this party is unaustralian it constantly finds fault with everything the govts do


lol. Christ almighty.




It should be pretty easy to find out if these fishermen are getting a big cut of the million dollars paid to people smugglers for each boat load.

If they are, 5 years isn't long enough. If they aren't they shouldn't be imprisoned at all.
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #12 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:48pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:46pm:
Quote:
god shes thick..

I truly get the feeling this party is unaustralian it constantly finds fault with everything the govts do


lol. Christ almighty.




It should be pretty easy to find out if these fishermen are getting a big cut of the million dollars paid to people smugglers for each boat load.

If they are, 5 years isn't long enough. If they aren't they shouldn't be imprisoned at all.


I doubt is a big cut.....but there'd have to be A cut involved...

Even if they're only getting the equivalent of $500 to $2000 dollars for the trip...they're STILL involved, and breaking our laws...
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #13 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:59pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:19pm:
corporate_whitey wrote on Feb 7th, 2012 at 12:02pm:
The Political class needs to be stopped from abusing the power of the state to control our lives in the home and from illegally abusing the power of the state to threaten our social and economic security.  There are no dole bludgers there is only the political class trying to abuse the power of the state to illegally violate our free will.  The state has no right to control people through economic cvorruption, it hasd no right - the political class tries to play us through the ALP, the Coalition and the Greens, but the object of their strategy is the same, to illegally use force against us to rob us of our freedom and economic rights.  To the Political and Corporate class - we will not bow down and worship your gods and you have no right to abuse the power of the state against us - you have no legal right. Cool



But you do want the government to be involved in your life to determine that you are eligible for ...er... government largesse.


Yes - we want social security and stability and the position of the Political and business class as weakened as possible to excessive illegal power over our lives.  Strong social security weakens the political and business classes ability to abuse power against us in the workforce.  The Political class are not the Government, the people are, the political class does not exist or have a right to a self consciousness or interest of its own as an entity or to represent the interests of a specific class against another - it has no right to use power to cause unfair disadvantage.  Social security is the same right I claim for myself that the political and corporate class does and I have no room to negotiate - you will not use political and economic power against me period.  And you will not use any of the excuses you hide behind in the strategies of the Greens the ALP and the Coalition to use power against me.  You will not act as Lord, God and withholder or provider of my rightful share in the economy, I do not cede this sovereignty to the political class or the corporate class. Cool
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Re: The Green's argument for no punishment?
Reply #14 - Feb 7th, 2012 at 1:00pm
 
Another misleading topic title from our resident flag waving retard.

So they aren't actually arguing for no punishment, but rather an end to mandatory minimum sentences for people smuggling?

Goodo then. Mandatory minimum sentences for any crime suck dog's balls. Sentencing should always be at a judge's discretion.
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