Australian Politics Forum - Islam is the way forward

abu_rashid

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #60 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:48pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 10:18am:

Happy new year, Abu. I don't know why you bother even replying to these comments. They are not interested in learning, just proving their own misguided points.

Thanks Annie, I still hold out hope in them bettering themselves and being able to see reason. I am an optimist, I know.

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Grey

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #61 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 6:35pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:48pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 10:18am:

Happy new year, Abu. I don't know why you bother even replying to these comments. They are not interested in learning, just proving their own misguided points.

Thanks Annie, I still hold out hope in them bettering themselves and being able to see reason. I am an optimist, I know.

As an Anarchist, I have no problem whatsoever in distancing myself from 'propaganda of the deed' and any other lunacy wrongly attributed to Anarchism. If you want to teach anything useful about Islam, why not adopt a similar posture? Instead of being an apologist for wahabism.

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GoddyofOz

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #62 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 6:38pm

Can I just say that the greater irony about Saudi Arabia is that they are subject to MUCH LESS scrutiny from the United States and the U.N about its practices, primarily because of their Oil.

Why do certain factions in the West think it appropriate to keep their mouths shut about human rights when Oil is involved? It screams of ignorant hypocrisy to me.

All the while, the Saudis are allowed to sit on their gold plated toilet seats, hiding womens eyes because they're enchanting. Please, that's a wank.

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"A Conservative is a man who just sits and thinks, mostly just sits." - Woodrow Wilson.

True Patriotism is serving your country all the time, and serving your Politicians when they deserve it.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #63 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 7:44pm Says a lot about the morals of the West doesn't it? Capitalism is only interested in one thing. It will do whatever it can to get it.
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GoddyofOz Gold Member Offline Vote 1 for Sex, cause you're gay if you don't Posts: 2397	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #64 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 8:01pm abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 7:44pm: Says a lot about the morals of the West doesn't it? Capitalism is only interested in one thing. It will do whatever it can to get it. While I agree, I don't appreciate you ignoring the actions of Saudi Arabia either.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #65 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 9:44pm I don't ignore them at all. I am one of the most vocal opponents of the Saudi regime that there is.
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freediver

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #66 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:03pm

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Happy new year, Abu. I don't know why you bother even replying to these comments. They are not interested in learning, just proving their own misguided points.

Annie, can you explain why only people who want to believ Islam are interested in learning?

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These people know absolutely nothing about Islam and for the most part, they're not engaging Abu to learn

I have learnt wuite a lot from Abu. For some reason it does not reassure me the way it does you.

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they're engaging him to prove him wrong on a subject about which they're ignorant

I am not trying to disprove Islam or religion. That would be pointless. I would be more than happy to merely find out what Abu believes. There is no right or wrong here, just sane and crazy.

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If you are genuinely curious about Islam, I can't see Abu refusing to answer your questions - unless you've got an obvious agenda like FD or the other Islamophobes (which you do, right?)

Here we go again. Unless you believe in Islam then Muslims cannot possibly give you a straight answer.... Can you acknowlede Annie that someone can be both genuinely curious about Islam and criticial of it at the same time? Or is this mutually exclusive to you? Abu has refused to give even the most basic answers or clarify any of his glaring self contradictions. Blaming it all on other people isn't exactly helping his cause. Why are you so keen to excuse Abu's inability to be straight with non-Muslims?

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You know Abu is a revert, right? He is probably more Australian than you are, Bolshevik.

So he keeps saying, but the Australia he describes sounds like something out of a Wahabbi propaganda book. According to Abu there are only two types of people in Australia - Muslims and degenerates. And you expect us to 'learn' from that?

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But the woman is just a bunch of random molecules isn't she?

Abu, if you cannot comprehend other people's belief systems you cannot simply substitute your own version and expect to be taken seriously.

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Says a lot about the morals of the West doesn't it?

LOL - the backwardness of the middle east? I suppose you can blame everything there on the west rather than local Muslims.

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I am one of the most vocal opponents of the Saudi regime that there is.

Except that you blame the west for it at every opportunity. If you were honest about this Abu then you would not be so frightened of your criticism falling on fellow Muslims. How can Islam be such a poweful force and at the same time so impotent that Muslims are mere puppets of the west who cannot be held responsible for their own actions?

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #67 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:21pm

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Annie, can you explain why only people who want to believ Islam are interested in learning

Can you show me where I said that please?

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I have learnt wuite a lot from Abu. For some reason it does not reassure me the way it does you.

I'm not surprised. We have been through this before, haven't we? You ask a question, Abu answers and then you pick away at it. You disregard everything he says except the parts you can try to manipulate. If you were genuinely interested in learning about Islam, then you would stop trying to trick Abu and trip him up and actually be respectful and read what he has to say.

You're intelligent enough to know that much of what he says is in retaliation to the crap you and others throw at him. Why can't you admit that you just enjoy the argument rather than the learning? A lot of what he says is in reaction to your provocation.

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I would be more than happy to merely find out what Abu believes.

Bullshit - you want to tear his beliefs apart.

I make my fair share of mistakes, but at least I'm trying to learn and share. It's all about point scoring with you and it gets old.

I appreciate the forum that you've given us to be able to discuss these things, but debating anything with you personally is like bashing a head against a brick wall.

Change tactics with Abu and I bet you'll find engaging with him a much more productive and rewarding experience.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Islam is the way forward Reply #68 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:22pm Or not. If you are genuinely trying to learn, then it's your loss.
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freediver

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #69 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:42pm

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Can you show me where I said that please?

Your standard response to anyone who is critical of Islam is that they are ignorant or not willing to learn and either way Abu should not bother responding to them.

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I'm not surprised. We have been through this before, haven't we? You ask a question, Abu answers and then you pick away at it

No picking is necessary. When he does give a striaght answer rather than an excuse for not answering his own words suffice.

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You're intelligent enough to know that much of what he says is in retaliation to the crap you and others throw at him.

And I generally ignore all his petty BS and propaganda. It is what he says about Islam that I pay attention to. It is pretty rare these days as he is afraid to do anything other than criticise the 'evil west' or post fluff pieces about how nice Muslims are.

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Why can't you admit that you just enjoy the argument rather than the learning? A lot of what he says is in reaction to your provocation.

I have actually been trying to get him to talk about Islam rather than get personal.

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Bullshit - you want to tear his beliefs apart.

No I don't. I want to build them up. The fact alone that he believes what he believes is more than enough for my interest.

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I make my fair share of mistakes, but at least I'm trying to learn and share. It's all about point scoring with you and it gets old

Wrong. I have gone to extraordinary lengths to get a simple answer from Abu. Abu has gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid answers and make excuses. I put it to you that it is you who is interfering with genuine learning by facilitating Abu's deflections and constantly changing the subject from Islam to our 'unwillingness to learn about Islam'. Abu is a big boy. He can answer for himself.

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I appreciate the forum that you've given us to be able to discuss these things, but debating anything with you personally is like bashing a head against a brick wall.

That's because you are trying to prevent debate. I am trying to discuss Islam, and you are trying to prevent discussion of Islam by making it personal. Perhaps it is so frustrating for you because I am genuinely interested in Islam rather than the personal battles you try to substitute. How exactly do you expect to promote debate by telling all of Abu's critics that they are not worthy of a straight answer unless they say nice things about Islam?

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #70 - Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:50pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 11:18am:

If you are genuinely curious about Islam, I can't see Abu refusing to answer your questions - unless you've got an obvious agenda like FD or the other Islamophobes (which you do, right?)

interperetation : if you ask any question to an islamic you must believe any and every answer.
Any questioning shows you are an islamophile and totally disinterested in being brainwashed.

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Grey

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #71 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 12:11am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 5:44pm:

Grey wrote on Jan 2^nd, 2012 at 4:18am:

If the 'human' was flaying a woman to death and throwing acid over girls for the crime of going to school I'd certainly favour the cockroach.

But the woman is just a bunch of random molecules isn't she? Why would it matter to an atheist if a container of other molecules (in this case sulphuric acid) happened to come into contact with her by means of a catalyst (another organism of random molecules)?

Where's the meaning in it all? What's right? What's wrong? From the viewpoint of an atheist there's nothing intrinsically wrong about any of it.

If we're to have a meaningful conversation rashid, you have to stop telling me what I think.

Atheists don't believe in gods, in fact religious people don't believe in gods either. The difference between me and you is that you believe in one more god than I don't. Grin

The number of atheists who have no spiritual feelings at all is vanishingly small. We reject gods because they are a construct of men who use this abstract notion as a means of exercising power and control over other people. The men who constructed gods were often good men, they had the best of intentions, they tried to trick people into being their own best friend. Good people do bad things for good reasons. The problem for religion is that the lie is always there and it grows as lies tend to do.

The religions of today bear no relationship to their founders, not even Buddhism. Even if there were original texts written by the founders, let's say Mohommed, and every effort is made to keep to the direct teachings, the result is still a fail. Time itself corrupts.

Islamic scholars often say that Mohommed was a progressive who tried to limit the inherent misogyny of his culture as much as possible. That makes sense to me. But if his words say 'you may only beat your wife this much' and people take that as a literal truth, then the religion is no longer progressive. You cannot consult 2000 year old texts to gain an insight of how to live today. Move along, nothing to see there.

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freediver

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #72 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 9:55am

Annie it occurs to me that for all your criticism of other people debating incorrectly, you have not actually said what they are doing wrong. So what do you suggest? Should we say nice things about Islam? Should we refrain from discussing anything controversial? Should we pretend we are interested in reverting to Islam? Should we pretend we are not repulsed by all the backwards standards that Islam promotes? Or do we need to go further and help promote Islam in order to get a straight answer about anything?

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #73 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 10:30am

Quote:

Your standard response to anyone who is critical of Islam is that they are ignorant or not willing to learn and either way Abu should not bother responding to them.

It's not that you are critical of Islam that is the problem, it's the attitude. I am critical of some Islamic teachings myself and often argue with my husband about things like queer rights. We have many...lively debates.

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When he does give a striaght answer rather than an excuse for not answering his own words suffice.

He has given you straight answers about Islam before. So have I. Your method of debate is to choose a sentence out of a couple and use it as a weapon.

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It is pretty rare these days as he is afraid to do anything other than criticise the 'evil west' or post fluff pieces about how nice Muslims are.

I've said this before, but I really do think that most of that is in reaction to some of the bullshit that is posted on here by people like Sprint, Yadda and Salad In. A lot of Muslims have legitimate grievances with some of the things that the West have done and there are many non-Muslims with a sense of fairness who can see and support this. Similar to your stance on niqab. I know that has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of empathy with Muslims on your part, but at least you were fair enough to recognise that a ban would be an assault on their democratic freedom.

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Wrong. I have gone to extraordinary lengths to get a simple answer from Abu. Abu has gone to extraordinary lengths to avoid answers and make excuses. I put it to you that it is you who is interfering with genuine learning by facilitating Abu's deflections and constantly changing the subject from Islam to our 'unwillingness to learn about Islam'. Abu is a big boy. He can answer for himself

Yes he can, but if you're asking a genuine question about the religion, an answer from anybody who knows it should be enough. I have answered you plenty of times with the best intentions and you have never accepted them for what they are and moved on. Your intention is not to learn, but to challenge and change Abu's mind.

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That's because you are trying to prevent debate. I am trying to discuss Islam, and you are trying to prevent discussion of Islam by making it personal.

I am absolutely not trying to prevent debate.

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Annie it occurs to me that for all your criticism of other people debating incorrectly, you have not actually said what they are doing wrong. So what do you suggest? Should we say nice things about Islam? Should we refrain from discussing anything controversial? Should we pretend we are interested in reverting to Islam?

You're going to get back what you put in. You don't have to pretend anything - just have a little respect, because after all, you want something from Abu.

If you want him to give you the respect of a straight forward answer, then give him the respect of asking genuine questions without the bad attitude and condescension and attempts at entrapment.

How would you like to be asked if you were a Muslim?

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Soren

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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #74 - Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 10:44am

Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2012 at 10:30am: