Australian Politics Forum - Australian Hypocrisy

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #45 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:52am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:51am:

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:50am:

Of course it is exploitation.

Working on a people smuggling boat is pretty extreme. You are working for an organised crime gang in international waters breaking the federal laws of at least two countries, putting many lives at risk. Why are you pretending it is some kind of insiginficant offence?

We need to consider the consequences of our actions. If letting children go scott free leads to more children being sent on these dangerous voyages and more of them drowning, is that a good thing?

You do not have an option that involves no child being harmed.

I would not allow in anyone.

From 1 - 100 years of age.

If you allow in some, then the door is ajar.

I have plenty of sympathy for people in difficult situations, it is most unfortunate, but you cannot make exceptions at any time.

One exception leads to another, and another, and another etc.

Missed the point, Hicks... Read the thread.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #46 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:56am I dislike the use of 'white' and 'brown' children. I thought days of viewing people like that were long gone.....
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #47 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:58am Andrei.Hicks wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:56am: I dislike the use of 'white' and 'brown' children. I thought days of viewing people like that were long gone..... You've been out of Australia a while, then?
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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #48 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:40pm

Quote:

I've never suggested kidnapping..

You did suggest this:

Quote:

No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500...

Is it not kidnapping if you trick them into agreeing to go?

Quote:

Either Australia recognises the rights of all children or it recognises the rights of none... Or are you suggesting we should recognise the special rights of white kids and not those of brown kids...

As has already been established, we are in fact extremely lenient on children. This is a question of determining whether the person is a child, not whether children should be imprisoned. Obviously it is not as easy to track down the identity of people involved in international people smuggling rings as it is for a local child. We do not let local adult offenders walk free by merely claiming to be younger than they are, so it is not in any way a double standard as you suggest.

Quote:

And by the way... No doubt kids are not only more easily persuaded, I'd bet they're cheaper than adults.

You get what you pay for. You don't see children doing these jobs unless there is some kind of external reason for it.

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Soren

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #49 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:11pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by thetr own people if they broke similar laws.

Yet it is we who lecture Asia on human rights and the special rights of children.

Then lock theirs in prisons with adult rapists and murderers.

Bollocks.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #50 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:49pm

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

Quote:

I've never suggested kidnapping..

You did suggest this:

Quote:

No, I think they're duped into going along for the ride for US$500...

Is it not kidnapping if you trick them into agreeing to go?

Not at all... You can dupe someone into doing something, or going somewhere by not informing them of the danger or the risk of detention... the omission of which is not tantamount to kidnapping.

freediver wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:40pm:

Quote:

Either Australia recognises the rights of all children or it recognises the rights of none... Or are you suggesting we should recognise the special rights of white kids and not those of brown kids...

As has already been established, we are in fact extremely lenient on children. This is a question of determining whether the person is a child, not whether children should be imprisoned. Obviously it is not as easy to track down the identity of people involved in international people smuggling rings as it is for a local child. We do not let local adult offenders walk free by merely claiming to be younger than they are, so it is not in any way a double standard as you suggest.

If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians. Once placed in an adult prison, we have already violated their recognised special rights without taking every measure to determine their age. If we get it wrong once, then we're on notice that our system of age determination is flawed.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #51 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:50pm Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm: Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws. Well said!
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #52 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:51pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws.

Well said!

Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #53 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:55pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws.

Well said!

Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours.

Who exactly stated that it is being used as an excuse? Or are you just assuming that it is?

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #54 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:56pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:55pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:51pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 12:50pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 29^th, 2011 at 7:00pm:

Needless to point out but here is is anyway - we treat those Indonesian minors better than they would be treated by their own people if they broke similar laws.

Well said!

Stupidly said. The state of their system is not an excuse for failing ours.

Who exactly stated that it is being used as an excuse? Or are you just assuming that it is?

When it was raised as a point with regard to mitigating our imprisoning of Indonesian children in adult prisons.

Otherwise, why raise it at all?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #55 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 2:45pm We do not put Indonesian children, as children, into adult prisons. It is not possible under our legal system. If they were put into adult priosns it was because they had no ID to prove that they were under 18 or they are children like these children.
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #56 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:05pm OMG! Those individuals are definitely NOT children.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #57 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:38pm

Soren wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 2:45pm:

We do not put Indonesian children, as children, into adult prisons. It is not possible under our legal system. If they were put into adult priosns it was because they had no ID to prove that they were under 18 or they are children like these children.

Only pretty ones are children (under 18), Soren?

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freediver

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Re: Australian Hypocrisy
Reply #58 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 10:20pm

Quote:

If we believe that the special rights of children exist, then we must be vigilant in ensuring that a greater injustice is not committed against a child by presuming them to be adults because we do not have immediate access to their legal guardians.

So anyone who can successfully hide their identity while committing crimes accross multiple countries should get off scott free if they can't figure out who he is quick enough?

Quote:

Only pretty ones are children (under 18), Soren?

What is your alternative Helian? That any criminal can choose to be under 18 and get a free pass?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Uncle Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 688	Re: Australian Hypocrisy Reply #59 - Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:16pm Kids Schmids. There's lots of them, they're dumb and trusting of grownups. In another thread there was an outcry about this story - http://www.news.com.au/world/shocking-scenes-as-passers-by-ignore-dying-toddler-... Where is your form people?
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