Australian Politics Forum - How Atheist Are You?

GoddyofOz

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #75 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #76 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

I am as Atheist as Atheist gets.

Religion in general, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever, it is just one massive, primitive joke.

It's like Steam Engines being the primary mode of power in the 21st century, it is just not compatible or relevant anymore, and the younger generations are waking up to it. In another 3 or 4 generations, I would argue that the Religious will be a minority.

Religion was a tool used during the earliest civilizations to enforce authority, the will of the elitist and a caste system onto a populous that didn't know any better. Fat cats like the Pope and any King or Queen you can name got rich and powerful off of peoples hopes, passions and above all, their ignorance. Jerusalum was a symbol of power over other races and creeds that every faction wanted to control, and they used the will of God as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry and war mongering.

The same could be applied today, but albeit in a declining state. The Vatican is the picture perfect example of pomp and circumstance cloaked in spiritual self importance, and liberties, respect and dignity suffer as a result.

It must end, and it will end. It's only a matter of time, and humanity as a whole will be all the better for it.

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

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GoddyofOz

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #77 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:53pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

I am as Atheist as Atheist gets.

Religion in general, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever, it is just one massive, primitive joke.

It's like Steam Engines being the primary mode of power in the 21st century, it is just not compatible or relevant anymore, and the younger generations are waking up to it. In another 3 or 4 generations, I would argue that the Religious will be a minority.

Religion was a tool used during the earliest civilizations to enforce authority, the will of the elitist and a caste system onto a populous that didn't know any better. Fat cats like the Pope and any King or Queen you can name got rich and powerful off of peoples hopes, passions and above all, their ignorance. Jerusalum was a symbol of power over other races and creeds that every faction wanted to control, and they used the will of God as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry and war mongering.

The same could be applied today, but albeit in a declining state. The Vatican is the picture perfect example of pomp and circumstance cloaked in spiritual self importance, and liberties, respect and dignity suffer as a result.

It must end, and it will end. It's only a matter of time, and humanity as a whole will be all the better for it.

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

If I think it must end then if it must it eventually will. Learn some sophisticated English.

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"A Conservative is a man who just sits and thinks, mostly just sits." - Woodrow Wilson.

True Patriotism is serving your country all the time, and serving your Politicians when they deserve it.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #78 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 8:27pm

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:53pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:23pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:01pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 1:40pm:

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 10^th, 2011 at 6:53pm:

I am as Atheist as Atheist gets.

Religion in general, whether it be Christianity, Islam, Judaism or whatever, it is just one massive, primitive joke.

It's like Steam Engines being the primary mode of power in the 21st century, it is just not compatible or relevant anymore, and the younger generations are waking up to it. In another 3 or 4 generations, I would argue that the Religious will be a minority.

Religion was a tool used during the earliest civilizations to enforce authority, the will of the elitist and a caste system onto a populous that didn't know any better. Fat cats like the Pope and any King or Queen you can name got rich and powerful off of peoples hopes, passions and above all, their ignorance. Jerusalum was a symbol of power over other races and creeds that every faction wanted to control, and they used the will of God as a smoke screen to hide their bigotry and war mongering.

The same could be applied today, but albeit in a declining state. The Vatican is the picture perfect example of pomp and circumstance cloaked in spiritual self importance, and liberties, respect and dignity suffer as a result.

It must end, and it will end. It's only a matter of time, and humanity as a whole will be all the better for it.

And what if it doesn't?? What then??

What if it does? What then? See I can ask loaded questions as well.

Lisa Jones wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:18pm:

You're merely avoiding questions initially asked of you ( because you have no answer ).

It's not very helpful when trying to discuss a topic (as you can see).

GoddyofOz wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 4:31pm:

You're implying the question was answerable, when it isn't. Sadly, I do not own a crystal ball, and neither do you, because the Christians would execute you for witchcraft if you did.

Stop fibbing! Of course you have a crystal ball.

That's why YOU stated these words :

"It must end, and it will end." a few posts up.

Do you also have a convenient memory?

If I think it must end then if it must it eventually will. Learn some sophisticated English.

I trust the irony in your last post did not pass you by lol

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #79 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 9:28pm It's good see debate... but please remember the power of your words on others.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #80 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 8:31am Hang on, I missed something. Who has crystal balls?
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #81 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 3:03pm muso wrote on Dec 13^th, 2011 at 8:31am: Hang on, I missed something. Who has crystal balls? LMAO!
Back to top	If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free. HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415) IP Logged

Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #82 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 3:04pm Sappho wrote on Dec 12^th, 2011 at 9:28pm: It's good to see debate... but please remember the power of your words on others. Interesting clip. I might bookmark that one actually.
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nairbe

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #83 - Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm

I wonder what it is you actually ask. As an Atheist i don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. It is over used, abused and in the end brings the automatic association of an entity to the great majority. Even worse to most it would be an all powerful male entity. If you are inferring that god 'IS' rather than GOD exists i will happily discuss the possibilities. Other than this the concept, idea or inference of GOD and creation are deeply embedded in fear and ignorance. Some things don't have an answer yet, others have answers but require you to do some heavy reading and listening. The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

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Amadd

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #84 - Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:20pm

Quote:

The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

It may even be possible that your thoughts and actions have some bearing on what happens elsewhere, or in some other time.
In this case quantum physics, karma, belief in God, would all be relevent to each other and you would be more than just relevent to yourself.

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Soren

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #85 - Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:21pm

nairbe wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm:

I wonder what it is you actually ask. As an Atheist i don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. It is over used, abused and in the end brings the automatic association of an entity to the great majority. Even worse to most it would be an all powerful male entity. If you are inferring that god 'IS' rather than GOD exists i will happily discuss the possibilities. Other than this the concept, idea or inference of GOD and creation are deeply embedded in fear and ignorance. Some things don't have an answer yet, others have answers but require you to do some heavy reading and listening. The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

Turn it around make it sensible:

"The are many books available on God that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run toQuantum Physics to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves."

Now it makes a great deal of sense since god is about relationhips between humans, which is numero uno on the list of what's important while subatomic structures are a poor 578 millionth.
Relationships are not simple. Running away from the difficulty is no solution.

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nairbe

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #86 - Dec 25^th, 2011 at 5:30pm

Soren wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 5:21pm:

nairbe wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2011 at 1:14pm:

I wonder what it is you actually ask. As an Atheist i don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. It is over used, abused and in the end brings the automatic association of an entity to the great majority. Even worse to most it would be an all powerful male entity. If you are inferring that god 'IS' rather than GOD exists i will happily discuss the possibilities. Other than this the concept, idea or inference of GOD and creation are deeply embedded in fear and ignorance. Some things don't have an answer yet, others have answers but require you to do some heavy reading and listening. The are many books available on Quantum Physics that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run to a GOD to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has no great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves.

Turn it around make it sensible:

"The are many books available on God that are readable for the simple folk like me, but just because you don't understand does not mean you have to run toQuantum Physics to find meaning in existence. Many may even be frightened to discover that their life has great meaning other than that which is relevant to themselves."

Now it makes a great deal of sense since god is about relationhips between humans, which is numero uno on the list of what's important while subatomic structures are a poor 578 millionth.
Relationships are not simple. Running away from the difficulty is no solution.

Quite fascinating the desperation to justify one’s self that we will invent God’s to give greater meaning and relevance to our existence. The simple pleasure in this expression of conscience is not hard to accept and enjoy. Why the need to expand its simplicity with God’s and self importance that have throughout history shown themselves to be nothing more than mechanisms to manipulate and control the conscience and behavior of the society that we live in.

We have built our god’s through time from humble beginnings of fear of the sun and weather to the pagan’s and the myriad of idols they had to justify and give meaning to their existence. Christianity is a relatively new idea and for the most part a contradiction of the Old Testament that it is born from. The all powerful god, the angry god that punished us with the great flood and the exodus of the Hebrew’s from Egypt and it’s many fascinating self serving stories such as the pesach that was nothing more than the manipulation of events ending in murder and assassination.

As science has developed and we have gained understanding as a species we remain resistant to the logic before us and all to often prefer to reject the logic in favor of fabulous fables and parables we fail to consistently interpret never mind don’t understand.

Why would the God’s of ancient Greece or Rome not be the true God’s, or the Egyptian God’s? How about the current Hindu faith and it’s range of God’s. The rejection of the God’s of others in justification of your own is ridiculous. The existence of your God is no more provable or deniable than theirs.

So Amadd you indulge in the hypotheses of possibilities that are offered for self-justification in your reference to physics. Your interpretations are of Science fiction. And Soren if feel sorry for one that has nothing more than the manipulation of another’s words to justify their own insecurity.

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Soren

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #87 - Dec 26^th, 2011 at 9:59am

Religion is not the only means of social control. Conversely, suggesting that social control is religion's only purpose is too silly to contemplete 9nevertheless, you seem to contemplate only that when the topic comes up.)

You seem to have a very self-contradictory way of thinking: "As an Atheist I don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. " As an atheist you should be quite clear what god means because your stance of being 'a-godist' wouldn't make any sense if you didn't know what you are doing without.

You seem to think that historicims ('religion is just social contol which we now finally see) and solipsism (it's all about what you think, simple pleasures of coinsicence ) are enough. No so. You need to come up with something that engages with the meaning of religion and god.

Meaning. God's meaning is in the expression of human relations. To each other, to nature, to ancestors, to descendants. There is no doing away with the compulsion we all have to look for the memaning of these relations. The religious recognise certain shared frameworks of such meaning. Thre is variety of meanings, to be sure, but th ssential point is in the need to make sense an find meaning.

This maning has to be outside yourself (ie not solipsistic). As with art, meaning is nt a privte affair. It has to be shared. Once shard, it is a bond, a binding (the meaning of religio)

Atheism removes certain kind of meaning-making. Very well. But you must put something else in its place. To say that 'this is not the meaning of these relationhips' is not enough. You need to say what the maning then is. This is why my turning around your ords makes sense.

PS.
Apostrophy = it is a marker of absence. Do not use it when nothing is omitted.

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« Last Edit: Dec 26^th, 2011 at 4:29pm by Soren »

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nairbe

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #88 - Dec 26^th, 2011 at 1:13pm

Soren wrote on Dec 26^th, 2011 at 9:59am:

Religion is not the only means of social control. Conversely, suggesting that social control is religion's only purpose is too silly to contemplete 9nevertheless, you seem to contemplate only that when the topic comes up.)

You seem to have a very self-contradictory way of thinking: "As an Atheist I don't actually recognise the word 'GOD'. " As an atheist you should be quite clear what god means because your stance of being 'a-godist' wouldn't make any sense if you didn't know what you are doing without.

You seem to think that historicims ('religion is just social contol which we now finally see) and solipsism (it's all about what you think, simple pleasures of coinsicence ) are enough. No so. You need to come up with something that engages with the meaning of religion and god.

Meaning. God's meaning is in the expression of human relations. To each other, to nature, to ancestors, to descendants. There is no doing away with the compulsion we all have to look for the memaning of these relations. The religious recognise certain shared frameworks of such meaning. Thre is variety of meanings, to be sure, but th ssential point is in the need to make sense an find meaning.

This maning has to be outside yourself (ie not solipsistic). As with art, meaning is nt a privte affair. It has to be shared. Once shard, it is a bond, a binding (the meaning of religio)

Atheism removes certain kind of meaning-making. Very well. But you must put something else in its place. To say that 'this is not the meaning of these relationhips' is not enough. You need to say what the maning then is. This is why my turning around your ords makes sense.

PS.
Apotrophy = it is a marker of absence. Do not use it when nothing is omitted.

Funny you talk of contradictions. What ever would i want or need some odd ideals of a god that does not and has never existed, i cannot miss what is not and has never been. To me that is like pinning all my hopes that Santa clause will bring me a bright red Ferrari. Simply it ain't going to happen and it is really just a tool to get children to behave. That is the point of Atheism you don't have gods, believe in gods, need gods to give meaning to life or family. These things and many you have raise are answerable, do have meaning without a god and particularly religion. I have heard and considered all these ideas in life particularly from my minister parents when i was a child. Reason and some very sordid events caused me to loose faith in the church then over time simple logic resolved the stupidity of the god complex. I would pity those who are dependant on faith but in the end it is their own choice and it would be unforgivably patronising.

I am afraid that i don't see any other cause use or history of organised religion other than social and political control. The track record is there in all it's infamy and when you are not addicted and dependant on the god complex as your crutch in life the organised religion monster is exactly that. I am not pointing to christianity here, rather all religions and cult political ideals such as communism and fanatic rightism that was the Fascist. I applaud the secular democratic political system we have, it may not be perfect but on the whole it is ok. We have crappy times like what we have at the moment but it is not run by religious dogma or personality cults. You may well indicate that we have strong christian influence in our society and we do, but for me that is often out of place and holds the society back from its potential. There are other non christian democracies that have succeeded such as Israel and India. Each have their issues but so do we.

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Soren

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #89 - Dec 26^th, 2011 at 4:48pm

I do not think that the idea of god is exhausted by imagining an old man in the sky.
Not even those most antropomorphic gods, of the Greeks and Romans, were thought of as looking like humans. Depicting and representing and fabulation -these need a personification, allegorisation. But only children think these to be literally correct.

People look for meaning and find meaning. We cannot but interpret and that means finding meaning (even in ink blots). We cannot possible imagine a completly meaningless world and everything in that world, therefor, also being completely meaningless. We cannot conceive of all exitence being meaningless. But the meaning of anything is in elationhip to other beings. God is the collective verb (not a noun) for the an overarching meaning of all being.

As for social control, every kind of human relationship can be exploited and used for control, as every kind of meaning can be distorted. Distortion, self-promotion, taking advantage - selfish behaviour - is not unique to religion. But at least the best religions set a high standard.

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