Australian Politics Forum - How Atheist Are You?

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #45 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:38am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:19am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

LOL... surely you can see that deductive reasoning can address this without ever 'actually' addressing this? On that score we have a lot to thank Descartes.

But since you insist... Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god existed before the universe. Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god has a mind, at the least. Iff the mind of god, shifts from not creating a universe, to creating a universe, then the Will of that god has shifted in kind. The Will of god is of gods existence. Therefore, gods existence changes when its Will has changed.

Wink

So 'existence' (prior to existence) is synonymous with 'god'... To speak of 'existence' is to speak of 'god'.

What of tinkering with 'existence'?

No Helian. That's not what it says. I wouldn't even presume to say such a thing. Deductive reasoning can only go so far as the Will of god which when changed, is equally a change in existence. There may be other factors changing existence from gods perspective of which we know naught.

And before you try and push that envelope again... of this god's Will we know nothing beyond its will to create.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #46 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 2:24pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

LOL... surely you can see that deductive reasoning can address this without ever 'actually' addressing this? On that score we have a lot to thank Descartes.

But since you insist... Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god existed before the universe. Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god has a mind, at the least. Iff the mind of god, shifts from not creating a universe, to creating a universe, then the Will of that god has shifted in kind. The Will of god is of gods existence. Therefore, gods existence changes when its Will has changed.

Wink

Or to give my elephant example, the will of the elephant must have shifted when "He" created the microcosm of the frogs.

He didn't know that his will had changed, but all the philosophers in this world say it did, so it must have.

Deism is the bastard child of Reason and Christianity, who had a wild drunken fling together and lived to regret it. Now they both reject their offspring.

To assert "will" or even "sentience" is drawing a very long bow.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #47 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 7:17pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:38am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:19am:

Sappho wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:13am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

Quote:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:06pm:

So this 'existence' possibly preceded creation and that 'existence' was being tinkered with prior to creation.

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

What is 'existence' (i.e. that which existed prior to creation), that 'god' tinkered with)?

LOL... surely you can see that deductive reasoning can address this without ever 'actually' addressing this? On that score we have a lot to thank Descartes.

But since you insist... Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god existed before the universe. Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god has a mind, at the least. Iff the mind of god, shifts from not creating a universe, to creating a universe, then the Will of that god has shifted in kind. The Will of god is of gods existence. Therefore, gods existence changes when its Will has changed.

Wink

So 'existence' (prior to existence) is synonymous with 'god'... To speak of 'existence' is to speak of 'god'.

What of tinkering with 'existence'?

No Helian. That's not what it says. I wouldn't even presume to say such a thing. Deductive reasoning can only go so far as the Will of god which when changed, is equally a change in existence. There may be other factors changing existence from gods perspective of which we know naught.

And before you try and push that envelope again... of this god's Will we know nothing beyond its will to create.

It's not what it said, but I was interested in what you said...

You introduced 'existence' (prior to existence) and tinkering... I was hoping you'd amplify your reasons for introducing them into your argument.

And now you've introduced will...

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #48 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:43pm Sorry - my last post was the penultimate. YAWN!
Back to top	live every day IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #49 - Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:59pm Emma wrote on Oct 31^st, 2011 at 8:43pm: Sorry - my last post was the penultimate. YAWN! Last post then?
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #50 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 5:28am Nearly
Back to top	IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #51 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 6:18am Amadd wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 5:28am: Nearly Nah... She didn't bite...
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #52 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 7:16am

So far we've got :

'god'

'existence' before existence

Tinkering

And now... Will

How much can we pack load onto this wagon?

I was hoping we'd be only a post away from introducing an 'anti-god' inextricably bound to 'god' in some form of celestial adversarial dualism, to explain tinkering... Like, 'god' creates and 'anti-god' destroys or subverts...

Who knows? We may need a 'GOD' to explain 'god' and 'anti-god' and 'EXISTENCE' to explain 'existence' before existence ...

Stay tuned... It may still happen...

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #53 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:15am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Nov 1^st, 2011 at 7:16am:

Who knows? We may need a 'GOD' to explain 'god' and 'anti-god' and 'EXISTENCE' to explain 'existence' before existence ...

Stay tuned... It may still happen...

- and for that matter, to explain "before" before we had before.

Prior to existence, there was no "prior to". Space and Time became inextricably linked at that time.

Talking about "prior to" the Big Bang is a bit like talking about falling off the edge of the world (think Christopher Columbus' crew) - but that's ok. I like reading the ramblings of philosophers.

The term "without" is better than "prior to" in that context.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:23am by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #54 - Nov 1^st, 2011 at 9:20am Explain 'explain'.
Back to top	IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #55 - Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 7:24am Seems any time someone sets out to prove the existence of 'god' (or even suggest the logical possibility of "god's" existence... It doesn't take long before the argument looks as overloaded as Jed Clampett's car.
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #56 - Nov 3^rd, 2011 at 1:35pm

My general observation is that if something that is false is assumed to be true, then the consequences (the baggage that overloads Jed Clampett's car) start to become more and more patently absurd, until it gets to the stage where everybody but the very devout starts to recognise that the emperor has no clothes.

That seems to be the case here.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #57 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:55am hear hear
Back to top	live every day IP Logged

Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #58 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:56am oh no - blew it!!!!! BYE
Back to top	live every day IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #59 - Nov 4^th, 2011 at 6:29am Emma wrote on Nov 4^th, 2011 at 12:56am: oh no - blew it!!!!! BYE Well at least blowing it is better than inhaling it......?
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged