Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:36am:

Creation is necessarily tinkering is it?

Tinkering with what?

What is the thing with which your 'god' tinkered to create?

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:36am:

But you'd agree that tinkering requires mind... An imperfect and contingent mind.

Emma wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 3:56am:


I guess you've never had the opportunity to engage in philosophical thought experiments, which would explain why you cannot see one when it is staring you in the face!

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This is not about proving definitively the existence of a god or not. This is about the absurdity of claiming a lack of belief in that which is merely logically possible.

For example, the square is a logical possibility defined as that which has four straight lines of equal length at 90 degree right angles to each other. In reality however there are no squares which satisfy that definition. Are we to say because of this that we lack a belief in squares?

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The theory of atoms (atomos), which is about the nature of matter, is a human invention born of the Ancient Greeks. The theory argues from logical possibility that matter is not infinitely dividable.

There is no evidence for this logical possibility. But as you say, 'human's will believe what they choose, wrong-headed or not.' No surprise then that some scientists have claimed that finally... after more than two thousand years... that we have found the that indivisible matter and it is called a quark. But have we found the smallest constituent of matter, or have we reached the limits of our ability to detect matter given the current instrumentation in use?

More interestingly, iff the universe was born of a Big Bang, then it is more probable that matter is infinitely dividable. How else can you get to that singularity?

All of this is to show that it is absurd to assign truth values/ belief values to that which is merely logically possible. 

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It is logically possible that other intelligent life exists in the universe and that they have a concept of a god.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:38am:


Now that Helian is an anthropomorphic response to a non anthropomorphic answer to your question. LOLz...

It must be remembered that the logical possibility being explored here is that god existed prior to our universe existing... therefore, god has tinkered with existence and in so doing, created our universe.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Is there anything else we can load on?

What about an 'anti-god' who attempts to negate all that 'god' did and does, both prior to and after creation?  Could that explain 'tinkering'?

Sappho wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 1:03pm:

OK... Strike 'evolving'... Replace with 'being tinkered with'.

Helian... I've already made my point and you agree with me... so why are we still playing with logical possibility?

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I've done that now. Now what did you want to know?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 30^th, 2011 at 11:49pm:


LOL... surely you can see that deductive reasoning can address this without ever 'actually' addressing this? On that score we have a lot to thank Descartes.

But since you insist... Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god existed before the universe. Iff there is a god that created the universe, then that god has a mind, at the least. Iff the mind of god, shifts from not creating a universe, to creating a universe, then the Will of that god has shifted in kind. The Will of god is of gods existence. Therefore, gods existence changes when its Will has changed.