Australian Politics Forum - How Atheist Are You?

Sappho

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How Atheist Are You?
Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:24am

In this thread, I will contend that there is indeed a God and that its nature is to create the existence of physical things. The evidence for this God is existence itself which would not exist without the God that created it.

This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

Now... I have given you a God. I have advised you of its Nature. I have provided some very powerful evidence which is either direct evidence or highly persuasive circumstantial evidence.

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #1 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:44am

Creating the Logical Possibility for such a God as described above....

Everything that Humans understand about the universe is causal. Everything we use to explain the universe is causal. Every quest to learn more about the universe is causal. Humanity act causally in the universe treating it as a partner in causality. We are yet to find anything in the universe that does not have a causal relationship entailed.

It light of all this causality and the lack of first causes, current logic cannot allow for a non causal act of existence as it would contradict that which we know about the universe.

Therefore, based on current knowledge and logic, the Universe was caused.

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10266 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #2 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm What caused the god that caused the universe?
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Belgarion Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5566 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #3 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:20pm Questions like these are why I am an agnostic.
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Amadd

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #4 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Is this God a "conscious" entity which has the ability to intervene in occurrences such as: the weather, people's actions, earthquakes, etc?

Does this God relay instructions to "chosen" humans (men) so that these instructions may be written down for the whole world to follow?

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #5 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:36pm

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:14pm:

What caused the god that caused the universe?

That is actually an irrelevance because it is beyond our ability to know... in the same way that an answer to the question What caused the big bang is beyond our ability to know. Now if a lack of knowledge on the cause of the big bang does not negate their having once existed a big bang, then equally, a lack of knowledge on the cause of God does not negate the existence of that God.

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #6 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:42pm

Amadd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Is this God a "conscious" entity which has the ability to intervene in occurrences such as: the weather, people's actions, earthquakes, etc?

Does this God relay instructions to "chosen" humans (men) so that these instructions may be written down for the whole world to follow?

You looking for some add on tit bits so you can bring it into doubt? Sorry... no can do. I have told you all that can be known logically of this god.

I don't know if it is conscious... but I would assume it.

Otherwise, as I have already stated....

Quote:

This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #7 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:33pm Yes you did mention that there were no religious texts involved - my bad. So in that case, I'll take one Where's the shopping cart?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #8 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:42pm:

Amadd wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 4:23pm:

Quote:

Why as Atheists or Theists would you not believe that this God exists?

Is this God a "conscious" entity which has the ability to intervene in occurrences such as: the weather, people's actions, earthquakes, etc?

Does this God relay instructions to "chosen" humans (men) so that these instructions may be written down for the whole world to follow?

You looking for some add on tit bits so you can bring it into doubt? Sorry... no can do. I have told you all that can be known logically of this god.

I don't know if it is conscious... but I would assume it.

Otherwise, as I have already stated....

Quote:

This God does not have religious text or doctrines to support it. No one worships this God. It is not necessarily anthropocentric.

A deist's 'god'. 'god' not God.

The true impetus to belief in God (in thought and act) requires that its existence must have a direct and tangible effect on the believer -beyond what can be imagined psychologically (i.e. it can intervene) ... Without interventionism, there is no need for belief in God... It is then only a synonym for 'first cause', or 'god'.

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« Last Edit: Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:59pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #9 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm:

A deist's 'god'. A 'god' not God.

The true impetus to belief in God (in thought and act) requires that its existence must have a direct and tangible effect on the believer -beyond what can be imagined psychologically (i.e. it can intervene) ... Without interventionism, there is no need for belief in God... It is then only a synonym for 'first cause', or 'god'.

Hi there Helian... was waiting for the Deist god to be rattled around this thread.

I have a couple of issues with the Deism... first is the idea that god created the universe and then left it to its own devises... says who? god? How do the deists know that god did not tinker with his new toy?... second is this idea of perfection... the universe was created once and was so perfect it was left as it is.

I make no claims nor assumptions about God being capable of perfection... or lacking the curiosity to tinker with its created universe.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #10 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:58pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 7:50pm:

A deist's 'god'. A 'god' not God.

The true impetus to belief in God (in thought and act) requires that its existence must have a direct and tangible effect on the believer -beyond what can be imagined psychologically (i.e. it can intervene) ... Without interventionism, there is no need for belief in God... It is then only a synonym for 'first cause', or 'god'.

Hi there Helian... was waiting for the Deist god to be rattled around this thread.

I have a couple of issues with the Deism... first is the idea that god created the universe and then left it to its own devises... says who? god? How do the deists know that god did not tinker with his new toy?... second is this idea of perfection... the universe was created once and was so perfect it was left as it is.

I make no claims nor assumptions about God being capable of perfection... or lacking the curiosity to tinker with its created universe.

Hi Sappho... You've been gone awhile... Thought you must have left the building!

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #11 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:27pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

Not exactly what I meant. I make no claims about this God that cannot be known logically whereas the Deists do make claims and assumptions about their god which go beyond what can be known logically.

For example... Deists claim that their god created the universe but does not intervene within it. How can they know that? They can't logically know that! Now this claim comes with an assumption... that the universe was created so perfectly, it did not require intervention. Again, they can't logically know that!

I on the other hand am open to the idea that God is an interventionist but since it cannot be proven one way or another... I make no claim upon it... but it still remains a possibility and a perfectly logical possibility at that.

I can also claim quite logically that this God of which I speak is timeless... by our understanding of time anyway.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #12 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:27pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 8:01pm:

If you make no claims or assumptions then you are saying nothing.

Not exactly what I meant. I make no claims about this God that cannot be known logically whereas the Deists do make claims and assumptions about their god which go beyond what can be known logically.

For example... Deists claim that their god created the universe but does not intervene within it. How can they know that? They can't logically know that! Now this claim comes with an assumption... that the universe was created so perfectly, it did not require intervention. Again, they can't logically know that!

I on the other hand am open to the idea that God is an interventionist but since it cannot be proven one way or another... I make no claim upon it... but it still remains a possibility and a perfectly logical possibility at that.

I can also claim quite logically that this God of which I speak is timeless... by our understanding of time anyway.

Yes, I can see your point. I am not a deist.

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

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Sappho

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #13 - Oct 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

No... God is not the first cause. To be the first cause would require some kind of material existence and existence within the universe... which is most easy to discount for Atheists.

Sorry Helian, what I am saying is that God created the first cause of our universe... The Big Bang. Logically, that would require of God that it exist outside of the first cause.

How can I explain this more easily? What about this analogy... A Baker does not exist within the cake, but exists outside the cake in order to create it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #14 - Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:32am

Sappho wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 10:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 24^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

So far all I can take from your position is that 'god' is a synonym for 'first cause' and nothing more.

No... God is not the first cause. To be the first cause would require some kind of material existence and existence within the universe... which is most easy to discount for Atheists.

Sorry Helian, what I am saying is that God created the first cause of our universe... The Big Bang. Logically, that would require of God that it exist outside of the first cause.

How can I explain this more easily? What about this analogy... A Baker does not exist within the cake, but exists outside the cake in order to create it.

OK, let me rephrase...

As you can't (and don't) make any claims or assumptions about 'god' nor do you suggest that any claims or assumptions ever could be made about 'god', I can only take from your position is that your 'god' is synonymous with 'first cause' and nothing more.

Need we (or can we) say any more about this... 'god'?

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« Last Edit: Oct 25^th, 2011 at 5:37am by NorthOfNorth »

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