Australian Politics Forum - How Atheist Are You?

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #120 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Deifying nature is not atheism or club of humanity. Investing nature with meaning that subsumes all humans and binds them together in something common, something shared, something meaningful beyond them individually and only in community with each other and nature is - religion.

I always think that in the name of monotheism, Ashtoreth, the wife of Jehovah got a raw deal from the Judeo Christian religions. She represented the mother goddess, and had strong associations with nature and the Earth. She was frequently represented as a tree and worshipped by the Jews right up to the 6th Century BCE.

These religions deny the natural world, the flesh and any earthly matters, and cast her out as being the "Great Harlot" of Revelations.

From that time onwards any reference to the feminine divinity or traditional ceremonies in sacred groves celebrating nature have been denounced as witchcraft.

The worship of nature in itself is not necessarily atheistic, but it has long been anathema to the Abrahamists .

The God of nature is also the Deist God. (male by convention)

I think this is so because nature, the fertility of land are recurrent, cyclical.

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

The latter can and does subsume the former: the goal, redemption is the focus. Dante's final vision depicts it as the love towards which everything is drawn and around which all the stars move.
As the geometrician, who endeavours
To square the circle, and discovers not,
By taking thought, the principle he wants,
Even such was I at that new apparition;
I wished to see how the image to the circle
Conformed itself, and how it there finds place;
But my own wings were not enough for this,
Had it not been that then my mind there smote
A flash of lightning, wherein came its wish.
Here vigour failed the lofty fantasy:
But now was turning my desire and will,
Even as a wheel that equally is moved,
The Love which moves the sun and the other stars.

The curve is straightened, in some way, the circle is squared. This cycle is not a recurrent cycle of birth and death but of redemption and eternal (timeless, ie non-recurrent) bliss.

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #121 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

I think the real clash of ideologies is between 'cosmotheism' and monotheism, and that was behind the Christian backlash against Deism in the 17th and 18th centuries (or the beginning of the Age of Reason).

Deism is by definition a cosmotheism. The worship of the female divinity is cosmotheism by implication.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #122 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Back to top

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #123 - Jan 5^th, 2012 at 5:44pm

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Deifying nature is not atheism or club of humanity. Investing nature with meaning that subsumes all humans and binds them together in something common, something shared, something meaningful beyond them individually and only in community with each other and nature is - religion.

I always think that in the name of monotheism, Ashtoreth, the wife of Jehovah got a raw deal from the Judeo Christian religions. She represented the mother goddess, and had strong associations with nature and the Earth. She was frequently represented as a tree and worshipped by the Jews right up to the 6th Century BCE.

These religions deny the natural world, the flesh and any earthly matters, and cast her out as being the "Great Harlot" of Revelations along with any nurturing motherly aspects of religion .

From that time onwards any reference to the feminine divinity or traditional ceremonies in sacred groves celebrating nature have been denounced as witchcraft.

The worship of nature in itself is not necessarily atheistic, but it has long been anathema to the Abrahamists .

The God of nature is also the Deist God. (male by convention)

Interesting Muso. Not being familiar with Ashtoreth, I always thought it telling that monotheism came from the desert. When the environment is against you and survival a constant struggle, where to look but up? Up into the cool of the night, lit by a golden scimitar and where a 'heavenly host' guide the way. A night that waits to bring relief when the violence and struggle of mortal life is over.

The icons of the desert, the scimitar, the cross flames and incense.

Against the icons of more clement environments. The (pregnant) Earth mother, the sheaf of corn and above all the sacred grove, (the spirit is strong here, is it not obvious?). And of course it was inevitable, but not desirable, that the masculine religion would prevail against the feminine.

Now of course I'm not suggesting that European culture was all joyful hippies going off to Glastonbury. There were, I'm sure, always dominance games going on. Yet there are indications that the feminine side was always more in evidence. Women who were leaders not only happened but can be seen to be fairly common, and the major incursions came from the perimetre. The levant, the steppes and the ice.

Now you refer me back to a time when the mother was a part of Jewish theology. Could it be that the change in the theology coincided with the growth of the desert?

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #124 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 12:10am

Grey wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 5:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:30am:

Soren wrote on Dec 30^th, 2011 at 9:51pm:

Deifying nature is not atheism or club of humanity. Investing nature with meaning that subsumes all humans and binds them together in something common, something shared, something meaningful beyond them individually and only in community with each other and nature is - religion.

I always think that in the name of monotheism, Ashtoreth, the wife of Jehovah got a raw deal from the Judeo Christian religions. She represented the mother goddess, and had strong associations with nature and the Earth. She was frequently represented as a tree and worshipped by the Jews right up to the 6th Century BCE.

These religions deny the natural world, the flesh and any earthly matters, and cast her out as being the "Great Harlot" of Revelations along with any nurturing motherly aspects of religion .

From that time onwards any reference to the feminine divinity or traditional ceremonies in sacred groves celebrating nature have been denounced as witchcraft.

The worship of nature in itself is not necessarily atheistic, but it has long been anathema to the Abrahamists .

The God of nature is also the Deist God. (male by convention)

Interesting Muso. Not being familiar with Ashtoreth, I always thought it telling that monotheism came from the desert. When the environment is against you and survival a constant struggle, where to look but up? Up into the cool of the night, lit by a golden scimitar and where a 'heavenly host' guide the way. A night that waits to bring relief when the violence and struggle of mortal life is over.

The icons of the desert, the scimitar, the cross flames and incense.

Against the icons of more clement environments. The (pregnant) Earth mother, the sheaf of corn and above all the sacred grove, (the spirit is strong here, is it not obvious?). And of course it was inevitable, but not desirable, that the masculine religion would prevail against the feminine.

Interesting only insofar as it demonstrates that you understand nothing, except silly preconceived, pre-packaged ideas. You should read and think for yourself more, you are supposed to be an anarchist. But truth be told, I have never come across an independent thought from you. It's all '70 righht-on nonsense.

Abraham was from Ur, a city on the Euphrates, near the Arabian Sea. In Mesopotamia/Babylon. You know...er... Fertile Crescent. He was called OUTA Ur to look for Canaan. He wandered through desert. But, alas, he was already a monotheist by then.
So monotheism didn't come from the desert. It came from the capital city of an empire.

Gilgamesh. Read it. Or at least read about it. Tells ya where Abraham and the Jews and monotheism came from. The cities of Babylon. The Cities of the Plain.

Back to top

IP Logged

Grey

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 5341
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #125 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 1:34am

Quote:

you understand nothing, except silly preconceived, pre-packaged ideas. You should read and think for yourself more, you are supposed to be an anarchist. But truth be told, I have never come across an independent thought from you. It's all '70 righht-on nonsense.

From the master of unintentional irony. The ease with which you pronounce cuniform mythology with add ons as absolute fact is a wonder in itself.

Back to top

"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb

IP Logged

Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #126 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 4:21am Insofar as athiests go, they are as relative to religion as haircolour is to baldness. Can you comprehend it? Do you really need any further explanation?
Back to top	IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #127 - Jan 6^th, 2012 at 12:30pm

Grey wrote on Jan 6^th, 2012 at 1:34am:

Quote:

you understand nothing, except silly preconceived, pre-packaged ideas. You should read and think for yourself more, you are supposed to be an anarchist. But truth be told, I have never come across an independent thought from you. It's all '70 righht-on nonsense.

From the master of unintentional irony. The ease with which you pronounce cuniform mythology with add ons as absolute fact is a wonder in itself.

On the other hand, it's no wonder that you pronounce on things you know nothing about.

Anarchism, innit.

Back to top

IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #128 - Jan 7^th, 2012 at 6:53pm Ponce.
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #129 - Jan 8^th, 2012 at 2:40pm

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Redemption is mainly associated with Christianity, not monotheism.

Isn't that what the new "contract " was all about?

It's about the JC guy. Redeemer is his name, redemption is his game.

That what I meant by redemption. I don't know what you meant.

I mean back then you got struck down by lightning. There's no -"Oh sh1t I'm a heap of carbon now. How the heck am I going to be redeemed now?"

"Redemption? We don't do any of that stuff here. That's next door in the New Testament department"

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #130 - Jan 8^th, 2012 at 3:24pm

muso wrote on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 2:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 3:08pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 2:35pm:

Soren wrote on Jan 5^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Monotheism is redemption-directed, eternal, unchanging teleological, linear.

If you added "A subset of" to that statement, then I might agree. The monotheism (monolatry) of the Old Testament was very far from being redemption-directed.

An interesting novelty. Your own?

Redemption is mainly associated with Christianity, not monotheism.

Isn't that what the new "contract " was all about?

It's about the JC guy. Redeemer is his name, redemption is his game.

That what I meant by redemption. I don't know what you meant.

I mean back then you got struck down by lightning. There's no -"Oh sh1t I'm a heap of carbon now. How the heck am I going to be redeemed now?"

"Redemption? We don't do any of that stuff here. That's next door in the New Testament department"

Not so. Redemption is heaven, paradise, nirvana, etc, achieved or granted because that's the kind of moral world the one god created. The jews don't go with the JC guy, but they do believe in redemption - just not by the JC guy.

In Ancient Greece, everyone went to Hades. Because tht's the ind of world that came to be whn the gods were doing their business. In polytheist eligions, humanity is not central to creation. In monotheism, it is. Why? because because a single god gets to hav a moral character as judge and sorts the sheep from the goats at the exit sign. The idea is that not all shall have prizes. That's a monotheistic idea. Polytheists can't have such an idea because their gods are many and conflicted, just like the people. They are in flux just like the mortals. They ay have honour, at best, but no redemption.

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #131 - Jan 9^th, 2012 at 12:08pm

Soren wrote on Jan 8^th, 2012 at 3:24pm:

In Ancient Greece, everyone went to Hades. Because tht's the ind of world that came to be whn the gods were doing their business. In polytheist eligions, humanity is not central to creation. In monotheism, it is. Why? because because a single god gets to hav a moral character as judge and sorts the sheep from the goats at the exit sign. The idea is that not all shall have prizes. That's a monotheistic idea. Polytheists can't have such an idea because their gods are many and conflicted, just like the people. They are in flux just like the mortals. They ay have honour, at best, but no redemption.

Haven't you heard of the Elysium Fields (Ἠλύσιον πεδίον)? It's that place located by the gentle stream, Okeanos. Didn't you watch Gladiator? The heroes and the virtuous went there. The rest went to Hades.

Polytheism can have that kind of redemption too. It's not an exclusive deal with monotheism.

You mentioned Nirvana or Nibbana. That comes from Buddhism which has no gods. A similar concept is found in some kinds of Hinduism.

Most religions have some kind of afterlife. That in itself is a form of redemption.

The Ancient Egyptian afterlife was a paradise too.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #132 - Jan 9^th, 2012 at 8:46pm No matter how worthy they were, Greeks heroes didn't go to Olympos after death, ie into the presence of Zeus. SO elysium is more like the gentler circles of Hell in Dante rather than Heaven, or perhaps like Purgatory but without any hope of progressing to the Presence as that was unthinkable.
Back to top	IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: How Atheist Are You?
Reply #133 - Jan 10^th, 2012 at 11:03am

Soren wrote on Jan 9^th, 2012 at 8:46pm:

No matter how worthy they were, Greeks heroes didn't go to Olympos after death, ie into the presence of Zeus. SO elysium is more like the gentler circles of Hell in Dante rather than Heaven, or perhaps like Purgatory but without any hope of progressing to the Presence as that was unthinkable.

Aha - so you're moving the target. You're redefining "redemption" to signify cohabitation with the big G.

Well from what I read about him in the OT, I'd prefer my eschatology to be a bit less confronting, far from the divine gaze and divine halitosis as it were. Not sure if I'd really like to be reviewing the Sunday papers at breakfast time with that particular deity. The continual obsequious praising and harping would also be too much like Tartaros for my preference.

On the other hand, Elysium was a pretty decent place to be sent after casting off the old mortal coil and giving the old metal container a big wallop with your right foot.

This is what Hesiod had to say:

Quote:

And they live untouched by sorrow in the islands of the blessed along the shore of deep-swirling Ocean, happy heroes for whom the grain-giving earth bears honey-sweet fruit flourishing thrice a year, far from the deathless gods, and Cronos rules over them

Sounds like a fairly normal definition of redemption to me. You've been reading too much Christian propaganda.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jan 10^th, 2012 at 11:10am by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: How Atheist Are You? Reply #134 - Jan 10^th, 2012 at 11:06am Post deleted
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged