Australian Politics Forum - "Stop the BOATS " ?

Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #60 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:56am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:57am:

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:54am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:50am:

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:36am:

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 10:27am:

Point 2
I've never claimed boat arrivals are illegal. I've always said if you enter Australia without a VISA is illegal

Unless (of course) you can demonstrate you are escaping persecution from your country of origin and you are seeking refuge from that persecution and you declare yourself as such.

and until you can demonstrate it - then you are classified as ILLEGAL if you arrive here without a VISA

No you're not... A person (who has declared him/herself a refugee from persecution) cannot be deemed an illegal immigrant until it is either proved by that he/she is not a refugee from persecution and/or that the person cannot demonstrate that they are.

Otherwise a declared refugee is presumed to be fleeing persecution.

where did I say they are an "illegal IMMIGRANT"

I said they are here in Australia illegally and should be treated with all the benefits of an illegal until they verify their status as an immigrant, asylum seeker or whatever else they are claiming

A person who arrives in Australia and declares himself/herself a refugee from persecution is NOT an illegal immigrant.

A person who arrives in Australia and declares himself/herself a refugee from persecution is presumed to be a refugee from persecution until it can be demonstrated that his/her claim is untrue or cannot be substantiated, only then can the person be deemed an illegal immigrant.

Regarding the section I highlighted, it depends on how they get here. If they come via Indonesia on a boat and destroy their papers, they are entering Australia via illegal means. If they come by air and apply for refugee status while here on a visa, that is not illegal as they came via legal means.

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Dnarever

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #61 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:58am

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

So what? they are authorised arrivals. They have gone through the immigration process and obtained a Visa.

People arriving by unauthorised boats are illegal. It's against the law. That is the issue. Border protection.

It is not illegal to arrive at a point of entry and claim refugee status - there is no difference.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 62038 Here Gender:	Re: "Stop the BOATS " ? Reply #62 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:05pm Look like the biggest profit made bringing illegals to Australia could be made by Qantas.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #63 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:05pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Regarding the section I highlighted, it depends on how they get here. If they come via Indonesia on a boat and destroy their papers, they are entering Australia via illegal means. If they come by air and apply for refugee status while here on a visa, that is not illegal as they came via legal means.

It must be proved they destroyed their papers in order to deceive Australian authorities (or that there is reasonable suspicion that they did so) before they can be declared illegal.

A person is not illegal merely by setting foot on Australian territory where he/she declares himself/herself a refugee.

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Maqqa

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #64 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:07pm

cods wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

I have lost track of what is an asylum seeker.

what is a refugee

and what is an immigrant..

I know the dictionary definition... its what really do we class it as that is getting me confused..

An immigrant is a name given to a group of people who travels to another country seeking to stay there permanently

the terms asylum and refugees refers to the reason why you would commence the travel

other reasons might be due to work, family reunion etc

under each reason there are criterias you must prove in order to qualify

if you can't prove your reason then you don't get in

Generally you would make an application to come to Australia - this is done by applying for a VISA at any of the Australian Embassies around the world

to apply for a VISA you must tell Australia

(a) who you are,
(b) the reason why you want to come to Australia - work economic, asylum, refugee
(c) if you are of sound health

a VISA is simply a piece of paper than says you are allowed to enter Australia because you've passed/proven the above criterias

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #65 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:09pm

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

An immigrant is a name given to a group of people who travels to another country seeking to stay there permanently

the terms asylum and refugees refers to the reason why you would commence the travel

other reasons might be due to work, family reunion etc

under each reason there are criterias you must prove in order to qualify

if you can't prove your reason then you don't get in

Generally you would make an application to come to Australia - this is done by applying for a VISA at any of the Australian Embassies around the world

to apply for a VISA you must tell Australia

(a) who you are,
(b) the reason why you want to come to Australia - work economic, asylum, refugee
(c) if you are of sound health

a VISA is simply a piece of paper than says you are allowed to enter Australia because you've passed/proven the above criterias

Did you leave school at 15?

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Maqqa

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #66 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:10pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

An immigrant is a name given to a group of people who travels to another country seeking to stay there permanently

the terms asylum and refugees refers to the reason why you would commence the travel

other reasons might be due to work, family reunion etc

under each reason there are criterias you must prove in order to qualify

if you can't prove your reason then you don't get in

Generally you would make an application to come to Australia - this is done by applying for a VISA at any of the Australian Embassies around the world

to apply for a VISA you must tell Australia

(a) who you are,
(b) the reason why you want to come to Australia - work economic, asylum, refugee
(c) if you are of sound health

a VISA is simply a piece of paper than says you are allowed to enter Australia because you've passed/proven the above criterias

Did you leave school at 15?

did you EVER attend anything remotely resembling school?

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #67 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:12pm

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:10pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:09pm:

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

An immigrant is a name given to a group of people who travels to another country seeking to stay there permanently

the terms asylum and refugees refers to the reason why you would commence the travel

other reasons might be due to work, family reunion etc

under each reason there are criterias you must prove in order to qualify

if you can't prove your reason then you don't get in

Generally you would make an application to come to Australia - this is done by applying for a VISA at any of the Australian Embassies around the world

to apply for a VISA you must tell Australia

(a) who you are,
(b) the reason why you want to come to Australia - work economic, asylum, refugee
(c) if you are of sound health

a VISA is simply a piece of paper than says you are allowed to enter Australia because you've passed/proven the above criterias

Did you leave school at 15?

did you EVER attend anything remotely resembling school?

Does the term "Generally" mean much to you?

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cods

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #68 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:13pm

Maqqa wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:07pm:

cods wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

I have lost track of what is an asylum seeker.

what is a refugee

and what is an immigrant..

I know the dictionary definition... its what really do we class it as that is getting me confused..

An immigrant is a name given to a group of people who travels to another country seeking to stay there permanently

the terms asylum and refugees refers to the reason why you would commence the travel

other reasons might be due to work, family reunion etc

under each reason there are criterias you must prove in order to qualify

if you can't prove your reason then you don't get in

Generally you would make an application to come to Australia - this is done by applying for a VISA at any of the Australian Embassies around the world

to apply for a VISA you must tell Australia

(a) who you are,
(b) the reason why you want to come to Australia - work economic, asylum, refugee
(c) if you are of sound health

a VISA is simply a piece of paper than says you are allowed to enter Australia because you've passed/proven the above criterias

I was more asking about on here to be honest...I think everyone knows what the real terms are.. but now it seems to mean anyone that lands here can make any old claim.. boy why would you bother going through all the rigmorole that you have to go through say in England to come here.. when all you need to do is hop on a plane.. say your coming for a holiday overstay and then say.. oh btw you cant send me back someone will kill me..maybe the wife you deserted..it all becomes our responsibility because we let them in in the first place.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #69 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:16pm

cods wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:13pm:

I was more asking about on here to be honest...I think everyone knows what the real terms are.. but now it seems to mean anyone that lands here can make any old claim.. boy why would you bother going through all the rigmorole that you have to go through say in England to come here.. when all you need to do is hop on a plane.. say your coming for a holiday overstay and then say.. oh btw you cant send me back someone will kill me..maybe the wife you deserted..it all becomes our responsibility because we let them in in the first place.

It is highly unlikely that an overstaying Englishman would be able to substantiate claims of persecution within his homeland to qualify for refugee status. There would also be the problem that he overstayed in the first place and did not declare himself a refugee upon arrival.

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culldav Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2020	Re: "Stop the BOATS " ? Reply #70 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:27pm These scum-bag ‘boat people’ come here simply because of Australia’s generous welfare, that why 80% of them are still on some for of welfare even after 5 years being here.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: "Stop the BOATS " ? Reply #71 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:48pm culldav wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:27pm: These scum-bag ‘boat people’ come here simply because of Australia’s generous welfare, that why 80% of them are still on some for of welfare even after 5 years being here. Ah... Smells like a rural Western Australian/ Queenslander / South Australian just walked in
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #72 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 1:03pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 12:05pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

Regarding the section I highlighted, it depends on how they get here. If they come via Indonesia on a boat and destroy their papers, they are entering Australia via illegal means. If they come by air and apply for refugee status while here on a visa, that is not illegal as they came via legal means.

It must be proved they destroyed their papers in order to deceive Australian authorities (or that there is reasonable suspicion that they did so) before they can be declared illegal.

A person is not illegal merely by setting foot on Australian territory where he/she declares himself/herself a refugee.

WRONG - if you don't have the necessary papers (ie passport, visa, etc) then you're deemed to have entered or attempted to enter Australia illegally without the correct paperwork. Whether you wilfully destroyed those papers or the dog ate them does not matter.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #73 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 1:09pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 1:03pm:

WRONG - if you don't have the necessary papers (ie passport, visa, etc) then you're deemed to have entered or attempted to enter Australia illegally without the correct paperwork. Whether you wilfully destroyed those papers or the dog ate them does not matter.

WRONG. Refugees may not have the correct paperwork for legitimate reasons (i.e. they may have been confiscated by the refugee's country of origin from which he is escaping persecution)... A person who claims refugee status is not deemed illegal merely because he does not have the 'correct' paperwork, so long as he declares himself a refugee to authorities at the moment of his setting foot in Australia.

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adelcrow

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #74 - Sep 25^th, 2011 at 3:09pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 1:09pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 25^th, 2011 at 1:03pm:

WRONG - if you don't have the necessary papers (ie passport, visa, etc) then you're deemed to have entered or attempted to enter Australia illegally without the correct paperwork. Whether you wilfully destroyed those papers or the dog ate them does not matter.

WRONG. Refugees may not have the correct paperwork for legitimate reasons (i.e. they may have been confiscated by the refugee's country of origin from which he is escaping persecution)... A person who claims refugee status is not deemed illegal merely because he does not have the 'correct' paperwork, so long as he declares himself a refugee to authorities at the moment of his setting foot in Australia.

Aussies dont like reffos seeking asylum?
Then dont invade other countries based on lies and political spin..its quite simple really Cheesy

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