Australian Politics Forum - "Stop the BOATS " ?

Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #315 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:00am

philperth2010 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:57am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:49am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

Very simplistic view and totally ignores that Australia takes in more genuine refugees than required to each year. Not only that, but Australia has increased its intake of genuine refugees each year for quite some time. But of course, the Greens and ALP would prefer we didn't remember that so they can continue to peddle the line that we don't do enough for genuine refugees.

Australia became a signatory to the Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees in 1954 and 1973 respectively. Australia is therefore obligated to provide protection to both asylum seekers and refugees. Although Australia’s conditions for granting refugee status are in line with UN conditions in many ways, there are a number of areas where Australia has been criticised by the international community. Organisations such as Amnesty International, Oxfam and the UN have criticised Australia for deviating from the criteria, both directly and indirectly, by not upholding the spirit of the treaty.

Australia does this by having mandatory detention, discriminating between different groups of asylum seekers (this violates Article 31), and manipulating the definitions within the convention and protocol. These documents stipulate that a country must not change the definition of ‘refugee’. However, as of 2001, Australia altered the legal definition of ‘persecution’, resulting in fewer asylum seekers classified as refugees (this violates Articles 26 and 31).

Australia has also exploited UN protocol by liberally interpreting its guidelines in the development of legislature around the process for determining refugee status.

http://www.actnow.com.au/Issues/Refugees__asylum_seekers_in_detention.aspx

There are genuine refugees and those who just want to live in Australia because life is better here. Those people aren't fleeing in fear for their lives - just from a lower quality of life in their home country. By definition, that is not a refugee and that is what a considerable percentage of people are that arrive on the people smugglers' boats.

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #316 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:08am

philperth2010 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:57am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:49am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

Very simplistic view and totally ignores that Australia takes in more genuine refugees than required to each year. Not only that, but Australia has increased its intake of genuine refugees each year for quite some time. But of course, the Greens and ALP would prefer we didn't remember that so they can continue to peddle the line that we don't do enough for genuine refugees.

Australia became a signatory to the Convention and Protocol Relating to the Status of Refugees in 1954 and 1973 respectively. Australia is therefore obligated to provide protection to both asylum seekers and refugees. Although Australia’s conditions for granting refugee status are in line with UN conditions in many ways, there are a number of areas where Australia has been criticised by the international community. Organisations such as Amnesty International, Oxfam and the UN have criticised Australia for deviating from the criteria, both directly and indirectly, by not upholding the spirit of the treaty.

Australia does this by having mandatory detention, discriminating between different groups of asylum seekers (this violates Article 31), and manipulating the definitions within the convention and protocol. These documents stipulate that a country must not change the definition of ‘refugee’. However, as of 2001, Australia altered the legal definition of ‘persecution’, resulting in fewer asylum seekers classified as refugees (this violates Articles 26 and 31).

Australia has also exploited UN protocol by liberally interpreting its guidelines in the development of legislature around the process for determining refugee status.

http://www.actnow.com.au/Issues/Refugees__asylum_seekers_in_detention.aspx

There is nothing to say Australia cannot interpret protocol as they wish.
Amnesty International, Oxfam and the UN aren't in control of Australia borders, nor are they accountable to the Australian people so they can say what they like.

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #317 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

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...

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #318 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 6:31am:

... wrote on Sep 27^th, 2011 at 9:32pm:

Quote:

There's no point arguing with white trash.

They're born trash and their instinctive need is to inflict suffering on an underclass (or perceived underclass) lower than their own.

They're under-educated and morally bankrupt.. That's their cultural inheritance. They cannot ascend or be saved from themselves. Every country must endure their own version. Ours is the likes of this poster.

Nice to see you claim to be all about compassion and tolerance when it comes to boaties, yet you still manage to fulfil your innate need to have a designated 'other' to vilify, in your case "white trash".
You can't take the moral high ground without exposing your shocking hyopcrisy when you go and spout off about people who are 'born trash' any more than the people you berate for doing the exact same thing to people who are 'born black' or 'born afghani.'

but you just stay in denial if that helps.

Firstly, there fella, I wasn't taking a moral stand regarding the character or plight of people arriving by boat. My point from the start was and is that there is no offence under Australian law that criminalises the act of arriving in Australia or the seeking of asylum without a valid visa.

As for white trash, I believe that most if not nearly all Australians who are hysterical about 'boat people' are from an Australian underclass and are probably the progeny or cultural inheritors of those near 10% who voted NO in the 67 Referendum. These people are our white trash whose common goal (as it is with all underclass) is to inflict suffering on a people they consider (or want established as) an underclass lower than their own. They are likely under-educated and/or culturally, ethically and morally bankrupt who are most visible on Australia (Abuse-an-Immigrant) Day.

And does this 'underclass' have any more say in the circumstances they were born into than someone who was born gay or born in a foreign country?
It also seems as though your driving the nails into your own coffin - you seem to be sneering at people who create an 'other' or as you put it, an 'underclass to vilify, while you're doing the exact same thing.

RE: education levels this is oft referred to, but has no meaning at all. There is NO component of education (though they do unofficially try in uni) that teaches the 'correct' attitude to others arriving here - and that's a good thing, since it's all a matter of opinion and reliant personal preference and experience.

Finally, you assume 'they' are culturally bankrupt, although isn't it people sharing your view who have so little faith and pride in their own culture, that they elevate the culture of foreign arrivals above their own? That is the principle at the heart of multiculturalism after all....

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In the fullness of time...

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #319 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

Have you had your head in the sand since Rudd beat Howard? Twelve thousand arrivals, more than 100 boats since the last election. We just about have the Navy being run off its feet up north keeping up with the influx of people smuggling boats.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #320 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:20am:

[quote author=alevine link=1316868710/300#307 date=1317164678]

Well that something you say hasn't impacted our way of life is now costing the taxpayer $2BN per year and rising.
And we don't have to study the effects of out of control rising government debt in Greece to see what could happen when a nation has lost control of their border protection policy.
And if you don't like what an extrapolated computer model is telling you, turn the computer off and put your crash helmet on if you think you are in imminent danger. Grin

And I would that the only person needing to place a helmet on is you, and get yourself some bayonets because it appears we are being invaded by strange and different people who are out to completely change our life. Grin

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #321 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:41am:

philperth2010 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:36am:

Abbott has ruled out turning back the boats as Indonesia is not a signatory to the refugee convention.....This leaves the Coalition in a very strange position.....They have argued for compassion and humanity towards asylum seekers coming to Australia declaring Malaysia as to barbaric and cruel to send these desperate people.....So we can expect better treatment from the Coalition towards asylum seekers in the future.....Bullshit!!!

Angry

The Coalition will continue to resettle 13,000 asylum seekers per annum, and still have an effective border protection program that destroys the smugglers business model.

Oh? And what is this effective border protection program?

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #322 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:14am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:41am:

philperth2010 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:36am:

Abbott has ruled out turning back the boats as Indonesia is not a signatory to the refugee convention.....This leaves the Coalition in a very strange position.....They have argued for compassion and humanity towards asylum seekers coming to Australia declaring Malaysia as to barbaric and cruel to send these desperate people.....So we can expect better treatment from the Coalition towards asylum seekers in the future.....Bullshit!!!

Angry

The Coalition will continue to resettle 13,000 asylum seekers per annum, and still have an effective border protection program that destroys the smugglers business model.

Oh? And what is this effective border protection program?

Heard of the Pacific Solution? Temporary Protection Visa's (TPV's), offshore processing, turning back boats when safe to do so. For the past decade or so the Coalition has had a consistent and effective policy on this issue, proven to work. Unfortunately, the ALP has no policy and has failed miserably to stop the people smuggling boats.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #323 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:14am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:49am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

Very simplistic view and totally ignores that Australia takes in more genuine refugees than required to each year. Not only that, but Australia has increased its intake of genuine refugees each year for quite some time. But of course, the Greens and ALP would prefer we didn't remember that so they can continue to peddle the line that we don't do enough for genuine refugees.

Actually, if you had bothered to check the stats, until this year with the Malaysia solution, Australia hadnt increased its refugee intake since the beginning of the decade, if not before that. And of course we, like majority of other countries, are not doing enough when we sit here and argue over 12,000 people arriving over 4 years and forget the fact that millions are stuck in refugee camps around the world. It isn't something Australia can fix on its own. But it is something that cna be fixed if the issue was taken seriously through a proper diplomatic approach.

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FriYAY

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #324 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:15am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

I think we need to look at the world and what is happening in the world. Over population, hunger, thirst, internal/external conflict, religious persecution/conflict.

I think the issue will only get worse and worse as time goes by.

Perhaps one day we will need very stringent border protection. Huh

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #325 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:17am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:14am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:41am:

philperth2010 wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:36am:

Abbott has ruled out turning back the boats as Indonesia is not a signatory to the refugee convention.....This leaves the Coalition in a very strange position.....They have argued for compassion and humanity towards asylum seekers coming to Australia declaring Malaysia as to barbaric and cruel to send these desperate people.....So we can expect better treatment from the Coalition towards asylum seekers in the future.....Bullshit!!!

Angry

The Coalition will continue to resettle 13,000 asylum seekers per annum, and still have an effective border protection program that destroys the smugglers business model.

Oh? And what is this effective border protection program?

Heard of the Pacific Solution? Temporary Protection Visa's (TPV's), offshore processing, turning back boats when safe to do so. For the past decade or so the Coalition has had a consistent and effective policy on this issue, proven to work. Unfortunately, the ALP has no policy and has failed miserably to stop the people smuggling boats.

Yes, proven to work to deflect the issue from the narrow view of the bigots. In essence, no one was sent back who was on TPVs. People who went to Nauru ended in Australia anyway - it isn't a deterrent. Refugees began travelling to the US by boat, and even GREATER danger than the trip to Australia. And the situations in the camps in Malaysia and Indonesia didn't change, meaning vulnerable people were left to be dehumanised while the likes of Armchair can fill the gut with Red Bitter, open up the Herald Sun, burp and be satisfied that apparently their "way of life" is no longer being impacted by ... Grin

dangerous, different, weird, boat people. Grin

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #326 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:18am

FriYAY wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:15am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

I think we need to look at the world and what is happening in the world. Over population, hunger, thirst, internal/external conflict, religious persecution/conflict.

I think the issue will only get worse and worse as time goes by.

Perhaps one day we will need very stringent border protection. Huh

Or perhaps one day our governments will get off their arse and actually treat this issue as importantly as they treat Climate Change and Economics.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #327 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:19am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

Have you had your head in the sand since Rudd beat Howard? Twelve thousand arrivals, more than 100 boats since the last election. We just about have the Navy being run off its feet up north keeping up with the influx of people smuggling boats.

So, will you join the army to fight for Australia and defeat this invasion?

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: "Stop the BOATS " ?
Reply #328 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:26am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:19am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:11am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:09am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:22am:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:55am:

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:15am:

And in Australia, whether it's a trickle or a flood, using criminals to smuggle someone across our border isn't something the government needs to sponsor via weak and ineffective border protection laws.

People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government was free from public outrage to actually conduct a thorough review of our refugee program and strengthen it. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if the government used diplomatic approaches to tackle Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand on their disturbing refugee programs. People wouldn't require the use of smugglers to seek refuge if our past governments didn't enter redundant wars just because they couldn't get their heads out of US's ass.

I'd rather see the government have a working border protection program.

how is our border protection not working at the moment? Are we being invaded are we?

Have you had your head in the sand since Rudd beat Howard? Twelve thousand arrivals, more than 100 boats since the last election. We just about have the Navy being run off its feet up north keeping up with the influx of people smuggling boats.

So, will you join the army to fight for Australia and defeat this invasion?

I would, but my knee is a bit dodgy... Tongue

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sir prince duke alevine Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23619 Gender:	Re: "Stop the BOATS " ? Reply #329 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:28am Armchair_Politician wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:26am: I would, but my knee is a bit dodgy... That's okay - you can cook. I recommend you join up, as clearly we need to get our frontline out and ready to defend Australia against this massive, massive invasion!
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