Australian Politics Forum - John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos

Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #30 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 4:58pm

continued on same thread.

The Federal Opposition (said) John Howard is not fit to be Prime Minister after new revelations about the children overboard affair.

A former federal ministerial adviser says he told Howard in the lead-up to the 2001 election that no children had been thrown overboard from a boat carrying asylum seekers in Australian waters.

Mike Scrafton, an adviser to then-defence minister Peter Reith, has written a letter to The Australian newspaper saying he had three telephone conversations with Howard on November 7, 2001.

Mr Scrafton says he told the Prime Minister that a tape of the incident "certainly didn't support the proposition that the event had occurred".

He says he told Howard "that no-one in defence that I had dealt with on the matter still believed any children were thrown overboard".

The adviser says he also told the PM that photographs released during the debate were not of children thrown into the water.

"I spoke to him again telling him that we didn't believe the event actually happened," Mr Scrafton said. The day after Mr Scrafton says he briefed Howard the Prime Minister continued to say it did happen.

Labor leader Mark Latham says the revelations are extraordinary. "[I'm] outraged, absolutely outraged, that the Australian people could be so badly deceived and misled in the days leading up to the last election and the Prime Minister's covered it up ever since."

read morehttp://nswcnna.blogspot.com/2004/08/howard-unfit-to-lead.html

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #31 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 5:48pm

continuation of john howard murdered children thread.
Did John Howard murder 353 refugees?
Seb Prowse

On 19 October 2001, a boat bearing 421 asylum seekers capsized en route from Indonesia to Australia. 353 of its passengers drowned.

On 19 October 2001, a boat bearing 421 asylum seekers capsized en route from Indonesia to Australia. 353 of its passengers drowned.

As with the Tampa, the "children overboard" affair and 9/11, the Coalition managed to turn this tragedy into political gold during the last election campaign, whipping up hysteria against people smugglers and winning support for a hardline border protection program. But how could the Navy fail to identify (and come to the aid of) a vessel floundering inside Australian waters? And what exactly is the nature of Australia's anti-people smuggling operations in Indonesia?

Tony Kevin is a former public servant who has been investigating these issues ever since. It was he who named the boat SIEV X (Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel, "unknown"). In Melbourne recently to promote his new book A Certain Maritime Incident: The Sinking of the SIEV X, Tony spoke to Socialist Alternative's Seb Prowse.

You were first drawn to the SIEV X story when you saw one of the early news reports that a survivor had seen boats approach and then leave as they were floating in the water?

Yes, well that struck me as likely to be true but also very disturbing. I also linked that with a report that appeared in The Australian four days after the sinking which said that the boat sank 80km south of Java. There was actually a small map ... showing where the boat sank, so I felt that it was very important to establish whether there could conceivably be - I didn't think that there was at the time - the possibility that an Australian ship might have seen the boat sinking and done nothing.

Your book also points towards the possible involvement of the Australian Government in acts of sabotage of refugee vessels. What led you in this direction?

My book has set out a huge number of questions based on official testimony and official written documents. The questions go to whether the Australian government's upstream people smuggling disruption program in Indonesia, which has been admitted, may have engaged in illegal activities through two groups of people.
Firstly, the Indonesian police who were paid by Australia to disrupt people smuggling, even though it was not a crime in Indonesia and still is not a crime in Indonesia.
Secondly, through a group of informants, people who actually penetrated the people smuggling industry, became part of it, provided information that led to its dismantling, and may have actually themselves organised phoney voyages and sunk boats. The most notorious of these is Kevin Enniss.

The Enniss story is a good one.

Yeah, the Channel 9 Sunday team met him in a bar in Ko Phang and he was boasting. He showed them his mobile phone with direct numbers through to Australian Federal Police liaison agents in the Embassy, and he boasted that he had organised voyages and sunk them, but he said that he sunk them close to shore and that people got ashore safely.

You're one of the 43 people who signed the statement calling for truth in government. How would you locate that statement within what you've called the anti-John Howard movement?

I would say most of the people who've signed that statement are more conservative than I am in their general political orientation. I think I've now probably moved to the radical end of the spectrum. But I think the important thing about it is that regardless of political orientation, we could all agree that what John Howard is doing to government represents a real threat to our democracy.

You write that for evil to happen, like what apparently happened with the SIEV X, it doesn't necessarily require evil intentions on the part of people within the bureaucracy, but that it can happen because of the nature of the bureaucracy itself.

This is the great insight of Hannah Arendt and other writers that followed her, like the Polish sociologist Zygmunt Bauman: when you've got this complex bureaucratic system, where everyone's got their own little job to do and everyone's encouraged not to think too much about how their own little job fits into the broader context, it's quite possible for entirely decent people to be involved in broad programs that result in the death of fellow human beings.
I don't have a conspiracy theory that a group of people sat around a table and said "Let's kill 353 refugees as a deterrent", but I can quite see how that tragedy might have grown out of a whole series of small bureaucratic decisions that in their totality produced that outcome.
And that is why in my book I am always very careful not to make broad, sweeping allegations. I simply say what happened here, what happened there, this history raises certain questions ... and so my book is like a tapestry, a Persian carpet if you like. It's an accumulation of questions that in their totality suggest that somehow or other, under the command responsibility of the present Prime Minister John Howard, something happened and 353 people died - and we need to get to the bottom of that.

And you would locate the driving mechanism of that process as being the policy of border protection and the environment of fear that was created in the lead-up to the last election?

continue

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Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #32 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 5:48pm

Absolutely. Once you've decided to dehumanise asylum seekers, once you've decided to regard them as an anonymous, faceless security threat, it's then very easy to become rather indifferent to the value of preserving their lives. You've already made the judgment that they're not really human in the sense that we are. They are just an abstract, undifferentiated threat. So you do have to dehumanise them and this was done deliberately by the former Defence Minister, Peter Reith, through 2000-2001 when there was a directive that those people whose boats were encountered were not to be photographed, were not be given names, they were simply an undifferentiated mass of, I suppose, "enemy aliens".

One of the more emotive parts of the book is where you describe the refusal of government figures to actually release the names of SIEV X passengers. It reminded me of the new book Lives in Limbo, which describes refugees as a new underclass - cut off from the rest of society, dehumanised in life and in death.

Well, there's a couple of things to say about that.
Firstly, the specific reason why Senator Ellison won't release the list of names is that the very fact of releasing it would raise the question of how did the Australian police come by such a detailed list. Well, how on earth did they get that list if they weren't part of the disruption of a people smuggling operation? The list itself will be one of the strongest pieces of evidence of complicity and disruption so they don't want to produce it ...
On the broader question about the vulnerability of refugees - yeah, the naming of a person is what gives them dignity. Everybody's got a right to their name and if you deny a person their right to a name, you're really saying that they're no better than a chicken in a battery farm ... So it's just terrific now that in the last couple of weeks for the first time, a group of asylum seekers are actually being given names and identities.

And on the front page of the Herald Sun!

Absolutely. I think that's a really historic moment in Australian history, because it's the first time that a refugee family have been able to speak for themselves. And the same thing happened the next day on the Channel 9 Sunday program. So suddenly, the mainstream media have acknowledged that these people have a right to be given a voice. I think that that shows that we've come a long way from the dehumanisation of three years ago. And of course, the government's had to accommodate to that. John Howard is now pretending that his government is quite warm and fuzzy and really cares about refugees. They'll still keep places like Baxter open and still be very cruel in all kinds of ways, but they are trying to present their refugee policy as having more of a human face.

That's something that can give heart to people who are going through the hard slog of campaigning around an issue like this.

Yeah. Of course they will never acknowledge that the work of refugee activists had anything to do with this change in opinion, that that was the reality. But we all know that the Liberal Party backbenchers who pressed hard for the softening of policy would not have done that if they weren't coming under sustained moral pressure from refugee activists around Australia.

But the survivors of the SIEV X in Australia have not been granted permanent visas. It shows there's still a lot of work to be done, doesn't it?

The whole issue of making permanent the residency of all TPV holders, not just the SIEV X survivors, is a very urgent thing, and it's being addressed in a very piecemeal way... absolutely everybody who's here on a TPV should get permanent residency, that's right.

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #33 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 6:52pm

Continued thread 46 children ~ 142 women ~ 65 men

I Remember SIEVX
& Years Passed
since the Sinking
by Marg Hutton

I remember the 146 children, 142 women and 65 men who drowned on the high seas seeking refuge in Australia nine years ago today. This tragedy swept away entire families and scattered the few dozen survivors to the four corners of the globe.

I remember Sadiq who struggled all night to stay afloat with his baby daughter Kauthar on his shoulders; his bravery, care and concern for his child in stark contrast to the lies and slurs of the government of the time who falsely claimed asylum seekers were throwing their children overboard to emotionally blackmail their way into Australia. (Sadiq and Kauthar were resettled in Finland.)

I remember Sabah, the last man to be rescued, the 45th survivor, who fought for his life in the water for two whole nights before being found. He lost his wife and two children and was the only one left alive of a group of about 20 who all perished on their planks waiting for rescue. (Sabah now lives in Norway.)

I remember Zaynab, the twelve year old girl who lost both her parents and all her brothers and sisters to the Indian Ocean. She was the first of the SIEVX survivors to be granted entry to Australia. (She lived here with extended family for several years but returned permanently to Iran some time ago.)

I remember Ammar, the twelve year old boy whose mother, brother, three sisters, uncle, aunt and two cousins all lost their lives on SIEVX. (Ammar has been trying to make it all on his own in Canada for years now since his father remarried and returned to Iraq.)

I remember Faris who lost his beloved wife and daughter on SIEVX. He was one of only seven survivors of the sinking who were granted residence in Australia. Even now, years later, he still sometimes wakes in the night screaming from all he has endured.

I remember Amal, who was "like a camera" and who, for the four years she lived among us here in Australia before her death from cancer in 2006, was driven to give testimony and share with us her story of the sinking. I remember the wails of the women at Edwardes Lake Park on the first anniversary as Amal recounted first in Arabic and then in English what had happened to her and her son, Rami on that terrible day.

I remember the father who on hearing of the sinking of SIEVX refused water, because drinking it reminded him of the drowning of his three beautiful young daughters, Eman, aged 9, Fatima aged 7, and Zahra aged 6, who he would never see again.

I remember Mohammad, Ghazi, Ali and Hazam and the many other fathers living in Australia in 2001 whose families were unable to reunite with them due to the inhumane restrictions of Temporary Protection Visas. The desperate wives and children of these men were left with no alternative but to pay a people smuggler to bring them to Australia if they wanted to see their menfolk again. So they travelled on SIEVX and were swallowed by the sea.

I remember Basam and the 22 other Mandean passengers who were resourced and knowledgeable and fortunate enough to be able to negotiate their way off the doomed boat before it sank. Basam and his family were lucky enough to survive SIEVX but they waited in Indonesia for more than six years after the sinking before being granted entry into Australia.

http://sievx.com/
http://sievx.com/

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Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #34 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 6:53pm

I remember the first anniversary and all the concerned, generous people who donated towards a paid memorial advertisement in the Australian. Enough money was raised to also provide some small assistance to the few survivors living in Australia at that time.

I remember the Launceston man who on the first anniversary ascended the bell tower at Chalmers Church and tolled the bell for each of the 353 lives lost on SIEVX; this took hours.

I remember the online condolence book created by a woman whose naval officer father was lost at sea during WWII; this woman knew what it was to have no grave or marker to remember her loved one and so in sympathy created 'Jannah'.

I remember the cairn of stones erected on the northern headland of Christmas Island in memory of the victims of SIEVX and other asylum seekers who have drowned en route.

I remember the astonishingly beautiful memorial of painted poles snaking along the shores of Lake Burley Griffin - one pole for each life lost, hand painted by school children, community groups and bereaved fathers of the victims.

I remember the songs, paintings, sculptures and installations inspired by SIEVX that continue to keep alive the public memory of this incident.

I remember the former Australian Ambassador who first brought concerns about SIEVX to the attention of the Senate. It was due primarily to his efforts that the Senate Committee investigating the Children Overboard Affair expanded its terms of reference to include SIEVX.

I remember all the people who have helped build this online archive - donating time, skills and knowledge.

I remember Abu Quassey, the smuggler responsible for the SIEVX voyage who conveniently managed to escape Australian justice through extradition from Indonesia to his home country of Egypt in 2003 where he was tried for his part in the SIEVX deaths and served a meagre five years in prison for his crimes.

I remember the five Senate Resolutions concerning SIEVX, calling for a judicial inquiry into the people smuggling disruption program and the circumstances of the sinking of SIEVX and asking for the government to release the list of the names of those who died on the boat. These resolutions continue to be ignored.

I remember Senator Jacinta Collins' valedictory speech on leaving Parliament in 2005 where she referred to the emotional effect SIEVX had on her and reaffirmed the need for a judicial inquiry into the sinking.

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #35 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 6:54pm

I remember former Senator Andrew Bartlett's moving speech in Parliament on the second anniversary. SIEVX is etched indelibly into his memory because 'the day that all those children drowned, was the same day that [his] first and only daughter... was born'.

I remember page after page of blacked out documents concerning SIEVX that were submitted in evidence to the Senate CMI Committee. What secrets were concealed under all that black ink?

I remember the disappointing Senate Report that not only failed to establish where the boat sank but also halved the number of children who lost their lives. This report also failed to dig below the surface in regard to questionable testimony and incomplete evidence from several government agencies.

I remember the other Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel (SIEV) that sank en route to Christmas Island less than two weeks before SIEVX sailed - the infamous 'Children Overboard' boat that raised a flag as a distress signal and and was towed in a holding pattern by HMAS Adelaide for 24 hours before it sank. Canberra would not allow the Adelaide to rescue the asylum seekers aboard that vessel until it sank and the passengers were actually in the water. Strangely, this boat is remembered for the incident that did not happen (asylum seekers throwing children overboard) rather than the one that did (an Australian Navy ship ordered to let a boat sink before rescuing its passengers so as to ensure Australia wasn't being 'suckered into a SOLAS' by wily asylum seekers.)

I remember former Australian Federal Police Commissioner Keelty claiming public interest immunity when questioned about whether tracking devices had been placed on SIEVs. Keelty's refusal to answer this question fuelled suspicions that the fatal SIEVX voyage had been tracked by Canberra.

I remember the Australian Federal Police nightly trawl of this website. It is difficult to imagine what the AFP expected to achieve with this surveillance.

I remember year after year of SIEVX related Questions on Notice put to the Howard Government by Senators Jacinta Collins, Christine Milne and others. Time was always on the side of the government with this slow motion tortuous ballet of evasion and obfuscation; eventually agencies like Defence repeatedly refused point blank to answer any questions put to them concerning SIEVX.

Above all, I remember Labor Senator John Faulkner's passionate resolve to get to the truth about SIEVX:

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #36 - Sep 23^rd, 2011 at 6:54pm

[W]hat about the vessel now known as SIEVX, part of the people-smuggling operation of the notorious people smuggler Abu Quassey? That vessel set sail on 18 October 2001 and sank on 19 October 2001, drowning 353 people, including 142 women and 146 children. Were disruption activities directed against Abu Quassey? Did these involve SIEVX?
I intend to keep asking questions until I find out. And, Mr Acting Deputy President, I intend to keep pressing for an independent judicial inquiry into these very serious matters.

At no stage do I want to break, nor will I break, the protocols in relation to operational matters involving ASIS or the AFP.

But, those protocols were not meant as a direct or an indirect licence to kill.

I remember the strong belief that things would change when Labor came to power as they would make good on their committment to hold a full powers Judicial Inquiry into SIEVX and the people smuggling disruption program operating in Indonesia at the time.

I remember the profound disappointment and anger when it became apparent that an Inquiry into SIEVX would not be held under the Rudd Labor government. With the Gillard government lurching further to the right on the issue of asylum seekers it is now extremely unlikely that SIEVX will be the subject of a formal investigation in the foreseeable future.

I firmly believe that if the passengers on SIEVX had been of a different background than Middle Eastern Muslim that a thorough investigation would have long ago been held into this tragedy.

~~~~~~~
'The loss of SIEV X is Australia's loss: 146 children died, some quickly others slowly; they should have grown up to be Australian - we will remember them. 142 women died, loving women who bravely traversed the world because Australia promised freedom once - we will remember them. 65 men - doctors, an engineer, linguists - fine and resourceful people we would have been proud to call Australian - we will remember them.
As we mark [the ninth] anniversary of 353 human lives lost, as this tragedy [continues to] knife its way into the soul of our nation, we remember you with burning hearts. Rest in Peace for you are not forgotten, nor will you ever be forgotten. You are part of this country and its people.'

(Source: Mary Dagmar Davies, Eva Sallis, Pamela Curr and Garry Bickley; Edited from 'Jannah the SIEVX Memorial' condolence messages and published in the Australian newspaper on the first anniversary of the sinking, 19 October 2002.)

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Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #37 - Sep 26^th, 2011 at 1:36pm

All good caring Australians should be aware of the shocking LIES spoken by John Howard regarding the the children and adults who perished from his incompetence.. and his party of LIARS. Nothing has changed..now that tony Abbott has his mantle. Abbot is also telling shocking LIES about refugees to a chorus of bigots and cory Bernardi fans.

If you want to see the Australian working man thrive and live well, his children thrive and have a clean green energy future with millions of new jobs in the renewable energy industry, if you want to see billionaires PAY for POLLUTING our planet , if you want to see humanity a strong part of the Australian character.

Tell tony Abbott to go to hell with his billionaire backers and to STOP telling shocking LIES just to get his arse into the Lodge..

The Unthrown Kids

John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos

On 23 July 2003, more than one-and-a-half year after the sinking of SIEV 4 - The Olong, as we learnt from David Marr - and the rescuing of its survivors by the crew of HMAS Adelaide on October 8 2001, we received (from someone who wishes to remain anonymous) a set of electronic photos taken on that fateful day.

Below are the photos - most of them are photos we were not allowed to see, in keeping with the brief issued by Operation Relex' Canberra Command Centre - at The Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet's office - which stipulated explicitly to 'not humanise the asylum seekers'.

http://www.safecom.org.au/kids-overboard.htm
http://www.safecom.org.au/kids-overboard.htm

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #38 - Sep 26^th, 2011 at 1:46pm

And since Siev 4, Howard stopped the boats, closed down the majority of mainland detention centres, saved the country mega millions of dollars, reduced the overall risk to asylum seekers, broke the people smugglers business model, all done whilst still accepting 13,000 asylum seekers each and every one of his 12 glorious years in office.
Have I missed anything out?

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"Another boat, another policy failure from the Howard government"

Julia Gillard
Shadow Health Minister
2003.

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Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #39 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:04pm

I remember former Senator Andrew Bartlett's moving speech in Parliament on the second anniversary. SIEVX is etched indelibly into his memory because 'the day that all those children drowned, was the same day that [his] first and only daughter... was born'.

I remember page after page of blacked out documents concerning SIEVX that were submitted in evidence to the Senate CMI Committee. What secrets were concealed under all that black ink?

I remember the disappointing Senate Report that not only failed to establish where the boat sank but also halved the number of children who lost their lives. This report also failed to dig below the surface in regard to questionable testimony and incomplete evidence from several government agencies.

I remember the other Suspected Illegal Entry Vessel (SIEV) that sank en route to Christmas Island less than two weeks before SIEVX sailed - the infamous 'Children Overboard' boat that raised a flag as a distress signal and and was towed in a holding pattern by HMAS Adelaide for 24 hours before it sank. Canberra would not allow the Adelaide to rescue the asylum seekers aboard that vessel until it sank and the passengers were actually in the water. Strangely, this boat is remembered for the incident that did not happen (asylum seekers throwing children overboard) rather than the one that did (an Australian Navy ship ordered to let a boat sink before rescuing its passengers so as to ensure Australia wasn't being 'suckered into a SOLAS' by wily asylum seekers.)

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FriYAY Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7395	Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard Reply #40 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:08pm [quote author=Mischa link=1316654945/30#31 date=1316764112] On 19 October 2001, a boat bearing 421 asylum seekers capsized en route from Indonesia to Australia. 353 of its passengers drowned. Guess they should have stayed home or in Indonesia.
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longweekend58

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #41 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:09pm

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Sep 26^th, 2011 at 1:46pm:

And since Siev 4, Howard stopped the boats, closed down the majority of mainland detention centres, saved the country mega millions of dollars, reduced the overall risk to asylum seekers, broke the people smugglers business model, all done whilst still accepting 13,000 asylum seekers each and every one of his 12 glorious years in office.
Have I missed anything out?

No I think that covers it pretty well!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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chicken_lipsforme Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 7090 Townsville NQ Gender:	Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos Reply #42 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:10pm And I remember 50 adults and children being mashed on the rocks at Christmas Island not too long ago all because Labor had to remove a working policy and install a failed one. Labor has blood on it's hands again.
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longweekend58

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard
Reply #43 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:11pm

FriYAY wrote on Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:08pm:

[quote author=Mischa link=1316654945/30#31 date=1316764112]
On 19 October 2001, a boat bearing 421 asylum seekers capsized en route from Indonesia to Australia. 353 of its passengers drowned.

Guess they should have stayed home or in Indonesia.

that is why Howards solution was so good. it STOPPED that kind of thing happening. then Rudd started it all up again.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Gimme Gimme

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Re: John Howard's "forbidden" kids overboard photos
Reply #44 - Sep 27^th, 2011 at 12:18pm

You are terribly WRONG LW..and obviously very attached to the Liberal party of LIES and misinformation..sadly.

John Howard is responsible for the murder of over 140 people in that boat..He left them to drown in the sea and then LIED to the Australian people about it..Murdoch press did a great job of covering it up and the racist section of Australia keep adding to the LIES and cover ups in support of that shocking John Howard the child drowner. Angry

How do you thoughtless Libtards live with yourselves..Do Libtards have even an ounce of humanity left or a conscience at all?

No I don't think they have..no they don't..this is a replay of 1930's nazi Germany/Australia and Hitler is on the rise again.
Sad

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