Australian Politics Forum - Arctic Ice continues to shrink

The_Barnacle

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #75 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #76 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:52am

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

Yes, it is actually diversion!

They(the richies) are simply giving their fellow established richies the maximum time to adapt their business plans and retool so to speak!

They know the science is in and they simply have to adapt to a phase change! YOU CAN'T STOP PROGRESS BUT YOU CAN HARMONISE WITH IT!

It's all quite natural!!

Naturally it's going to take time to explain the facts: how economically illiterate are we for instance! GEORGE MEGALOGENIS WROTE AN ARTICLE THE OTHER DAY ON EXACTLY THAT TOPIC!

Muddy the waters a bit and sow a few seeds of doubt and whoah!,... behold!... you've got perfect science: skepticism is an absolute lynchpin for the scientific process to work correctly and you may say this aint skepticism it's propaganda but then we are dealing with a world that lets it's media self regulate for buggerys sake so what do we expect!??!

"IT'S ALL GOOD IN THE END: IF IT'S NOT GOOD IT'S NOT THE END!"

For more pithy quotes just ask!! Cheesy

CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION IS CONSPICUOUS CONSUMPTION: THIS IS THE BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND END OF THE PROBLEM!

Wink

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #77 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:14pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

Yes, but the problem is, the environmental side has just as big a political agenda....

Chick's posting isn't nonsense...the problem is, the Arctic ice thing is waaaay over blown, and largely irrelevant, just like most of the doom and gloom horror stories (i.e the glaciers melting).

The Arctic ice sheet has melted before, and will do so again....likewise the glaciers......none of this is 'indisputable proof' of anything very much...That's the problem that most skeptics have...not that the climate is warming (changing), but man's role in it...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #78 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:35pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:14pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

Yes, but the problem is, the environmental side has just as big a political agenda....

Chick's posting isn't nonsense...the problem is, the Arctic ice thing is waaaay over blown, and largely irrelevant, just like most of the doom and gloom horror stories (i.e the glaciers melting).

The Arctic ice sheet has melted before, and will do so again....likewise the glaciers......none of this is 'indisputable proof' of anything very much...That's the problem that most skeptics have...not that the climate is warming (changing), but man's role in it...

LIBS DON'T UNDERSTAND RATES OF CHANGE,.. WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT!

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #79 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 1:11pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:35pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 12:14pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

Yes, but the problem is, the environmental side has just as big a political agenda....

Chick's posting isn't nonsense...the problem is, the Arctic ice thing is waaaay over blown, and largely irrelevant, just like most of the doom and gloom horror stories (i.e the glaciers melting).

The Arctic ice sheet has melted before, and will do so again....likewise the glaciers......none of this is 'indisputable proof' of anything very much...That's the problem that most skeptics have...not that the climate is warming (changing), but man's role in it...

LIBS DON'T UNDERSTAND RATES OF CHANGE,.. WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT!

Perhaps they don't...but it doesn't really change the fact that the rate of change is still well within the normal range that's been found in geological and ice core samplings......it's usually between 0.5C and 1.5C per century.....(+/- 0.2C)

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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chicken_lipsforme

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #80 - Dec 1^st, 2011 at 1:25pm

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 11:21am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:55am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Dec 1^st, 2011 at 10:46am:

Yes gizmo, much the same tactics are used in the smoking debate and also in the road toll. It's all marketing and the media wanting quick 10 second sound bytes.

Alarming and exaggerated claims about smoking dont change the fact that smoking is very bad for your health. You have to learn to separate the marketing and the media campaigns from the science itself.

So if you ignore the exaggerated and inaccurate claims made, the science still says that smoking is bad for your health and the science still says that human actions are changing the climate

Yes but most people don't or won't ingnore the exaggerations, which is why there is such panic over 'huge' sea-level rises (which haven't happened) and increases in the power and frequency of cyclones (which is also a non-starter)....

So, it's good you agree that teaching small children that the world will end in their life times (possibly before they grow up) is alarmist and inaccurate...

But that is a completely different issue to the science of human induced global warming. It is actually a diversion.

If climate deniers were only attacking some of the more outrageous claims that are being made then I wouldn't have an issue. But they don't, they continually attack scientists and they continually misrepresent data because they have a political agenda. You just have to look at the unscientific nonsense that chicken_lipsforme has posted on this thread

Do you prefer your nonsense scientific then do you?
If so, you've come to the wrong place.

Or would you prefer that we all become like test crash dummies and just nod when being told the Pacific islands are sinking, the Arctic is melting, the seas are rising and a thousand years ago Australia didn't have as many cyclones etc without a scrap of proof whatsoever.
And how is it possible that data can be misrepresented when that same data is information that has been interpreted and then extrapolated from a guess?
Let me know when Magnetic Island starts to go under will you.

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2003.

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MOTR Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6646	Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink Reply #81 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 7:19am ^Of course we don't expect you to act like a crash test dummy. It would be much better if you investigated the scientific arguments yourself, something you have patently not done.
Back to top	Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings "What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions." IP Logged

Ex Dame Pansi

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #82 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 7:28am

MOTR wrote on Dec 4^th, 2011 at 7:19am:

^Of course we don't expect you to act like a crash test dummy. It would be much better if you investigated the scientific arguments yourself, something you have patently not done.

Something I have done, and I've had a complete change of mind and I'm not even embarrassed about it.

The evidence is overwhelming, we should have taken action 40 years ago, hence the urgency.

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"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace." Hendrix
andrei said: Great isn't it? Seeing boatloads of what is nothing more than human garbage turn up.....

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MOTR

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #83 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 8:03am

What tires me is hearing the same flaccid arguments from people who claim to be skeptics, but accept fallacious arguments that don't even survive the most casual scrutiny. The problem is that the issue has become so politicised, people seem to be more worried about maintaining their political identity than rigorously exploring the truth.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Posts: 7062 Gender:	Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink Reply #84 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 8:09am Quote: The problem is that the issue has become so politicised, people seem to be more worried about maintaining their political identity than rigorously exploring the truth. Have a proper read of this board and you'll find that is the case on almost every issue discussed.
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MOTR

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #85 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 8:45am

No doubt. I'm sure I've been and will continue to be guilty of this. I do, however, respect sound arguments based on solid premises and can with enough persuasion be jolted out of my sympathetic tendencies. Although what rational soul doesn't believe this about themselves.

What is interesting is the stance of the Australian on this issue. In an editorial statement it clearly articulated it's position on AGW.

"And so it is in keeping with this newspaper's rationalist pedigree that we have long accepted the peer-reviewed science on anthropogenic climate change and supported a market mechanism to reduce carbon emissions. This is not a matter of belief or philosophy; rather it is a sensible position based on a commonsense analysis of the facts and scientific projections
as they stand."

Yet as a whole the paper seems to be clearly biased against this exact position and many it's headlines, articles and op-ed pieces guide their readership to an entirely different position.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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BatteriesNotIncluded

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #86 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 4:01pm

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Dec 4^th, 2011 at 7:28am:

MOTR wrote on Dec 4^th, 2011 at 7:19am:

^Of course we don't expect you to act like a crash test dummy. It would be much better if you investigated the scientific arguments yourself, something you have patently not done.

Something I have done, and I've had a complete change of mind and I'm not even embarrassed about it.

The evidence is overwhelming, we should have taken action 40 years ago, hence the urgency.

what about the quote from gizmo?

"Perhaps they don't...but it doesn't really change the fact that the rate of change is still well within the normal range that's been found in geological and ice core samplings......it's usually between 0.5C and 1.5C per century.....(+/- 0.2C) "

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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is. It wouldn't be there without the tax payer. Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know.... (swaggy) *

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MOTR

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #87 - Dec 4^th, 2011 at 5:59pm

^ you are going to ave to help me out with the name of the paper that this comes from. As I understand internal variability can only account for abput 0.3°C change in average global surface air temperature at most over periods of several decades. Over longer stretches of time, transient warming and cooling influences tend to cancel each other out.

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Hunt says Coalition accepts IPCC findings

"What does this mean? It means that we need to do practical things that actually reduce emissions."

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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink Reply #88 - Dec 12^th, 2011 at 7:12pm I'm not responsible for bringing the quote to the table: gizmo is!!
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muso

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Re: Arctic Ice continues to shrink
Reply #89 - Dec 13^th, 2011 at 7:03am

MOTR wrote on Dec 4^th, 2011 at 8:45am:

No doubt. I'm sure I've been and will continue to be guilty of this. I do, however, respect sound arguments based on solid premises and can with enough persuasion be jolted out of my sympathetic tendencies. Although what rational soul doesn't believe this about themselves.

What is interesting is the stance of the Australian on this issue. In an editorial statement it clearly articulated it's position on AGW.

"And so it is in keeping with this newspaper's rationalist pedigree that we have long accepted the peer-reviewed science on anthropogenic climate change and supported a market mechanism to reduce carbon emissions. This is not a matter of belief or philosophy; rather it is a sensible position based on a commonsense analysis of the facts and scientific projections
as they stand."

Yet as a whole the paper seems to be clearly biased against this exact position and many it's headlines, articles and op-ed pieces guide their readership to an entirely different position.

It's totally ridiculous, but not unprecedented. You just have to look at Fox in the US.

I don't think there is much hope left that we can avert any serious consequences at this stage. Herding cats is probably an easier task.

The best we can do is to minimise the damage. Perhaps the solution will come with artificial photosynthesis. There might have to be a range of solutions though.

http://solarfuelshub.org/

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