rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 7:51pm:


I'm supposed to draw a line between the dots of arctic ice shrinkage and increasing CO2 and according to Upton this is further limited to anthropogenic CO2. Even though ice core data supports that CO2 tended to lag temperature rise showing that in the past temperature drove up CO2 rather than the other way around. CO2 was still rising after temperature began to fall. This makes sense because the oceans have about 50 times the CO2 as the atmosphere and an increase of water temperature means that oceans become emitters. Upton will tell you there is a close correlation between CO2 and temperature however this fails to explain temperature for the majority of time life has been present in large quantities on the planet, 7000ppm during the Cambrian and an average of about 2000ppm from then over about the last 550 million years. The permafrost also emits large amounts of CO2 and methane when it thaws. The graphs provided they are accurate prove nothing other than there is less ice. There are any number of things operating at the same time that have the tendency to both deplete and aggregate the mass of ice. To think otherwise is applying a simple cause and effect senario to extremely complex systems. Levels of salinity, changes in currents and prevailing winds as well as climatic variation can all have effects. It is not up to me to provide alternative hypotheses for someone who posts a couple of graphs covering a geological fraction of an eyeblink when they have not made any sort of a case for causation themselves. The earth has never been static before us and no doubt will not be after us so why should it be so while we are here?

namnugenot wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:


I think that means no.

namnugenot wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 10:03pm:


And still an F.

MOTR wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 10:19pm:


You put up the hypothesis, you have to make your case, you can possibly convince me, but you have to do a tad more than nothing, along the lines of why is it CO2 and nothing else? What is it with you guys you expect everyone else to do your work for you? Do you have so little work ethic? If it was me putting up a hypothesis you would be asking me to justify it.
BTW are you saying it shrinks in summer because of CO2?

namnugenot wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 9:50pm:

So what is your explanation for why arctic ice is shrinking?

Care to share your "causation" hypothesis?

Is it magic?

MOTR wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:07pm:


No you have said over and over again it is CO2 as a stand alone hypothesis to the exclusion of any other possible causation as a driver of possible climate change including natural variability. You have not given even superficial attention to other possible causation. You continually adopt methodology and reasoning, if you can call it that, that disregards data that does not agree with your hypothesis. The ice core data that shows an association between CO2 and temperature but does not do so over the rest of the climate record shows CO2 being driven by temperature not the other way around. CO2 at the moment is still historically very low, and certainly lower than the 7000ppm of the Cambrian and the average of about 2000ppm since then. Three times it has been hotter that it is now in about the last 500k years all without us and the average over this period is about 4 degrees cooler than it is now. We are in fact very fortunate to live in a warm era. You say this is due to orbital forcings and yet there is considerable disagreement even between followers of Milankovitch showing them to have a purely interpretive application like reading palms. The only forcings that are taking place now are with data. And then you accuse others of cherry picking.
For the shrinking of the arctic ice you put up graphs for a couple of decades and that is supposed to be the end of it? Is it your hypothesis that the earth is unchanging?
Do you know what type of rock is on the top of Mt Everest?

rabbitoh07 wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:47pm:


Oh good you don't have to put up any proof at all for hypotheses now...well that is religion...it's certainly not science.

namnugenot wrote on Aug 9^th, 2012 at 11:55pm:

It is shrinking summer and winter.

Please tell us why all of the world's scientists are wrong but you and Alan Jones are right.

What is your secret?


Arctic sea ice extent for July 2012 was the second lowest in the satellite record, behind 2011.
(- National Snow and Ice Data Centre)