Australian Politics Forum - A question about Jesus religions...

NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #150 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:52pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 7:59pm:

The Apostle's Creed, recited by Anglicans, speaks of the καθολικός Church, meaning the original, universal sense of the Church. The C/catholic Church is both that (lower case) and a historical church (upper case) distinguished only in its concreteness by that upper case from all the other religiously or spiruitually equally καθολικός, in so far as Christian, churches.

Yes, Henry VIII, to his dying day, always considered himself a Catholic (capital C).

As for the Catholic Church... It's barely been 50 years since the hatred between Catholics and Protestants in Australia has abated - its abatement being due almost entirely to Australia's rapid secularisation. Prior to that, Catholic/Protestant marriage would split families apart with many being shunned and disinherited from both sides.

So much for universalism...

The only 'universalism' (if you can call it that) that has arisen between the different sects of Christianity is due to their mutual fear of being culturally irrelevant... And the seemingly endless sex scandals within the Churches (not limited to Catholics) has accelerated this irrelevance to the point that the term 'priest' is almost a synonym for paedophile.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: A question about Jesus religions... Reply #151 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:54pm Karnal wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:48pm: I'm not sure, old boy. The Greek religion of Orpheus believed in a redeemer god: Dionysus. You are full of innovation tonight. (you must have had an excellent postcolonial irrigation.) DO expand on this theory.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #152 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:57pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:15pm:

The Greeks knew tragedy because there was no justice in how the gods moved. There was no hope for justice for the dead in the next world, only tragedy, and revnge in this world. Oedipus, Antigone - no justice could be hoped for from the gods.

After Christ, tragedy in the sense of no-hope-for-justice-from-the-gods is not possible. God is seen as first of all just. Mysterious, of course, but ultimatly just. That is a moral dimension no Greek god had.

Didn't the rise of Greek democracy displace the gods as the source of justice by placing its administration in the hands of citizens, hundreds of years before the advent of Christianity?

Even Socrates got his day in court.

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Soren

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #153 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:59pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 7:59pm:

The Apostle's Creed, recited by Anglicans, speaks of the καθολικός Church, meaning the original, universal sense of the Church. The C/catholic Church is both that (lower case) and a historical church (upper case) distinguished only in its concreteness by that upper case from all the other religiously or spiruitually equally καθολικός, in so far as Christian, churches.

Yes, Henry VIII, to his dying day, always considered himself a Catholic (capital C).

As for the Catholic Church... It's barely been 50 years since the hatred between Catholics and Protestants in Australia has abated - its abatement being due almost entirely to Australia's rapid secularisation. Prior to that, Catholic/Protestant marriage would split families apart with many being shunned and disinherited from both sides.

So much for universalism...

The only 'universalism' (if you can call it that) that has arisen between the different sects of Christianity is due to their mutual fear of being culturally irrelevant... And the seemingly endless sex scandals within the Churches (not limited to Catholics) has accelerated this irrelevance to the point that the term 'priest' is almost a synonym for paedophile.

I don't mind having a discussion about church politics. But I find it a little too hard jump in and out of theology/philosophy and politics. If every philosophical point is met with a political one and every political one with a philosophical, then I am not the man to discuss this with you.

I have minimal to no interest in Irish politics of the 20th century and only a slightly greater interest in how it was impacting on Australia.

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Soren

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #154 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:00pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:15pm:

The Greeks knew tragedy because there was no justice in how the gods moved. There was no hope for justice for the dead in the next world, only tragedy, and revnge in this world. Oedipus, Antigone - no justice could be hoped for from the gods.

After Christ, tragedy in the sense of no-hope-for-justice-from-the-gods is not possible. God is seen as first of all just. Mysterious, of course, but ultimatly just. That is a moral dimension no Greek god had.

Even Socrates got his day in court.

For disrespecting the gods.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #155 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:07pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:15pm:

The Greeks knew tragedy because there was no justice in how the gods moved. There was no hope for justice for the dead in the next world, only tragedy, and revnge in this world. Oedipus, Antigone - no justice could be hoped for from the gods.

After Christ, tragedy in the sense of no-hope-for-justice-from-the-gods is not possible. God is seen as first of all just. Mysterious, of course, but ultimatly just. That is a moral dimension no Greek god had.

Even Socrates got his day in court.

For disrespecting the gods.

The verdict of which the Athenians came to regret.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #156 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:14pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:59pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:52pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 7:59pm:

The Apostle's Creed, recited by Anglicans, speaks of the καθολικός Church, meaning the original, universal sense of the Church. The C/catholic Church is both that (lower case) and a historical church (upper case) distinguished only in its concreteness by that upper case from all the other religiously or spiruitually equally καθολικός, in so far as Christian, churches.

Yes, Henry VIII, to his dying day, always considered himself a Catholic (capital C).

As for the Catholic Church... It's barely been 50 years since the hatred between Catholics and Protestants in Australia has abated - its abatement being due almost entirely to Australia's rapid secularisation. Prior to that, Catholic/Protestant marriage would split families apart with many being shunned and disinherited from both sides.

So much for universalism...

The only 'universalism' (if you can call it that) that has arisen between the different sects of Christianity is due to their mutual fear of being culturally irrelevant... And the seemingly endless sex scandals within the Churches (not limited to Catholics) has accelerated this irrelevance to the point that the term 'priest' is almost a synonym for paedophile.

I don't mind having a discussion about church politics. But I find it a little too hard jump in and out of theology/philosophy and politics. If every philosophical point is met with a political one and every political one with a philosophical, then I am not the man to discuss this with you.

I have minimal to no interest in Irish politics of the 20th century and only a slightly greater interest in how it was impacting on Australia.

Philosophical positions on how we should live, when adopted by the state, invariably become political positions.

Whether you believe that god is ultimately just is practically irrelevant... Countless murders and other crimes have been committed in the name of a just (Abrahamic) god...

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Karnal

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #157 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:16pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:48pm:

I'm not sure, old boy. The Greek religion of Orpheus believed in a redeemer god: Dionysus.

You are full of innovation tonight. (you must have had an excellent postcolonial irrigation.)

DO expand on this theory.

Read the rest of the thread, dear. Or look it up. My colon is overflowing with Christ light.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #158 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:16pm

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:59pm:

I have minimal to no interest in Irish politics of the 20th century and only a slightly greater interest in how it was impacting on Australia.

Not Irish politics in Australia... The problem was socio-political religious hatred driven by the Churches in the name of 'the one true god'.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: A question about Jesus religions... Reply #159 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:18pm The church is not god.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: A question about Jesus religions... Reply #160 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:20pm Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:18pm: The church is not god. The 'Vicar of Christ' is 'god's representative on earth'... Has been for nearly 2000 years.
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Soren

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #161 - Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:20pm

Karnal wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:16pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 8:48pm:

I'm not sure, old boy. The Greek religion of Orpheus believed in a redeemer god: Dionysus.

You are full of innovation tonight. (you must have had an excellent postcolonial irrigation.)

DO expand on this theory.

Or look it up.

I don't have access to the channels that are reserved just for you.

One of us is lucky.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #162 - Oct 16^th, 2011 at 10:53am

There is no way Christianity, as it has evolved, can be extricated from its political role (nor from its political nature) within western civilisation.

It has been a politicised religion, since Constantine and, arguably, the western Roman Empire continued its existence with the Popes assuming the role of the Caesars.

The dogma that we have today was sanctioned by Heads of State 1800 years ago with all other interpretations destroyed and nearly all non-Rome sanctioned orthodoxy (heresy) ruthlessly crushed.

Popes (later Protestant sects) and Kings have for centuries continued a mercurial relationship with regard to which institution has the greater authority... Church vs State.

You cannot 'know' the Christian god except via politically sanctioned texts.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 110869 Melbourne Gender:	Re: A question about Jesus religions... Reply #163 - Oct 16^th, 2011 at 3:51pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:20pm: Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:18pm: The church is not god. The 'Vicar of Christ' is 'god's representative on earth'... Has been for nearly 2000 years. True - The Pope has God's mobile phone number.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: A question about Jesus religions...
Reply #164 - Oct 17^th, 2011 at 6:54am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 16^th, 2011 at 3:51pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:20pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 15^th, 2011 at 9:18pm:

The church is not god.

The 'Vicar of Christ' is 'god's representative on earth'... Has been for nearly 2000 years.

True - The Pope has God's mobile phone number. Grin

Yeah, but God usually let's it go to voicemail..... Grin

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