Australian Politics Forum - Is Religion compatible with Evolution?

Deborahmac09

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #405 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

and that issue is ?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #406 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:36pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

Now .. seven days on and here we are again .. only now you are quoting the same citation back to me in some vague manner.

Sheesh .. is this going to be yet another rerun of last Saturday night?

I know you must enjoy staying up all night with me but in all honesty I find you infuriatingly and predictably boring as well as ignorant. And that tends to be a turn off for me.

If you wish to debate me tonight .. please .. have the decency to pretend to be intelligent.

I'm feeling tired as it is .. and chances are you will put me to sleep rather quickly if you keep posting your incessant ignorant driven and last minute desperate out of context googled nonsense.

I'm merely giving you a friendly warning .. given you attempted the above stunts last week and they backfired rather quickly.

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

CONTENTIOUS ISSUE??? Oh .. you mean you've been sitting there all week trying to figure out something which you've suddenly deemed contentious for us to explore/discuss tonight?

Fair enough Helian .. so what's your "contention" for tonight? Just lie down on the couch .. relax and tell me all about it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #407 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:36pm

Deborahmac09 wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:32pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:29pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:22pm:

For goodness sakes Helian .. I asked YOU to read that portion of the Holy Bible last Saturday night. I note that you never bothered to read it either (not until I made a fool of you that is).

So, you're not willing to debate the contentious issue of John 8 1:11 then?

and that issue is ?

It is an interpolation. Added to John centuries after it is almost universally agreed the Gospel of John was written.

It's quite well known (as an interpolation) and Sappho located a source of its history last week

Quote:

John 7:53 to 8:11: One of the most famous forgeries* in the Bible is the well-known story of the woman observed in adultery. It was apparently written and inserted after John 7:52 by an unknown author, perhaps in the 5th century CE. This story is often referred to as an "orphan story" because it is a type of floating text which has appeared after John 7:36, John 7:52, John 21:25, and Luke 21:38 in various manuscripts. Some scholars believe that the story may have had its origins in oral traditions about Jesus.
It is a pity that the status of verses John 8:1-11 are not certain. If they were known to be a reliable description of Jesus' ministry, they would have given a clear indication of Jesus' stance on the death penalty.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution? Reply #408 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you personally think about biblical canon. Let's start with that.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #409 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

I quoted Sappho's sourcing of it.

I have known of the text's spurious origins for quite some time as it is one of the most famous of likely interpolations. It is by far not the only example of interpolation, mistranslation, misinterpretation and redaction... But it is one of the most famous.

Other famous ones include (for example) the mistranslation / misinterpretation of 'young woman' as opposed to 'virgin' (regarding the status of Mary's conception of Jesus).

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #410 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

I quoted Sappho's sourcing of it.

I have known of the text's spurious origins for quite some time as it is one of the most famous of likely interpolations. It is by far not the only example of interpolation, mistranslation, misinterpretation and redaction... But it is one of the most famous.

Other famous ones include (for example) the mistranslation / misinterpretation of 'young woman' as opposed to 'virgin' (regarding the status of Mary's conception of Jesus).

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time .. the conspiracy theory concerns biblical canon.

Great << sighs >>

Have you anything else for me Helian?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #411 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:57pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

I quoted Sappho's sourcing of it.

I have known of the text's spurious origins for quite some time as it is one of the most famous of likely interpolations. It is by far not the only example of interpolation, mistranslation, misinterpretation and redaction... But it is one of the most famous.

Other famous ones include (for example) the mistranslation / misinterpretation of 'young woman' as opposed to 'virgin' (regarding the status of Mary's conception of Jesus).

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time it concerns biblical canon.

Great .. sighs.

Why would you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #412 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:57pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:56pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:50pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 8:45pm:

Helian .. you have quoted Sappho. Now .. I'm interested to know what you think.

Let's start with that.

I quoted Sappho's sourcing of it.

I have known of the text's spurious origins for quite some time as it is one of the most famous of likely interpolations. It is by far not the only example of interpolation, mistranslation, misinterpretation and redaction... But it is one of the most famous.

Other famous ones include (for example) the mistranslation / misinterpretation of 'young woman' as opposed to 'virgin' (regarding the status of Mary's conception of Jesus).

So .. you're now basically telling me that you're into conspiracy theories which emerge from time to time (about anything and everything). Only this time it concerns biblical canon.

Great .. sighs.

Why would you dismiss it as a conspiracy theory?

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Helian .. from time to time you will hear provocative and sensational claims made against biblical canon.

You will also find that these claims are made by those trying to cash in on the moment (and they usually do this by marketing themselves via a film, a book, or some doctoral thesis).

It gets tiresome (and predictable) after a while.

Oh and as regards this portion of your post:

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Could you tell me .. what has caused you to conclude this?

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HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #413 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian .. from time to time you will hear provocative and sensational claims made against biblical canon.

You will also find that these claims are made by those trying to cash in on the moment (and they usually do this by marketing themselves via a film, a book, or some doctoral thesis).

It gets tiresome (and predictable) after a while.

Oh and as regards this portion of your post:

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Could you tell me .. what has caused you to conclude this?

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of authenticity of all Biblical scripture with an emphasis on the originality of the four gospels (most recently - as I have stated earlier - Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus). However, these days its easier to use electronic sources of information such as :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#Textual_histo...

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #414 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:43pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian .. from time to time you will hear provocative and sensational claims made against biblical canon.

You will also find that these claims are made by those trying to cash in on the moment (and they usually do this by marketing themselves via a film, a book, or some doctoral thesis).

It gets tiresome (and predictable) after a while.

Oh and as regards this portion of your post:

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Could you tell me .. what has caused you to conclude this?

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of authenticity of all Biblical scripture with an emphasis on the originality of the four gospels (most recently - as I have stated earlier - Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus). However, these days its easier to use electronic sources of information such as :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#Textual_histo...

Ok .. so you've listed Eisenman as an authority regarding the New Testament. Let's work with that for a moment.

You do realise that Eisenman produced that book based on his own assumption that there MUST be a conspiracy?

Also .. you ought to know that Eisenman has never had access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, because he lacked training in interpreting paleographic documents.

As regards wiki .. well lol

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #415 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:02pm

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:43pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:05pm:

Helian .. from time to time you will hear provocative and sensational claims made against biblical canon.

You will also find that these claims are made by those trying to cash in on the moment (and they usually do this by marketing themselves via a film, a book, or some doctoral thesis).

It gets tiresome (and predictable) after a while.

Oh and as regards this portion of your post:

The story is not found anywhere in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts.

Could you tell me .. what has caused you to conclude this?

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of authenticity of all Biblical scripture with an emphasis on the originality of the four gospels (most recently - as I have stated earlier - Eisenman's James the Brother of Jesus). However, these days its easier to use electronic sources of information such as :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery#Textual_histo...

Ok .. so you've listed Eisenman as an authority regarding the New Testament. Let's work with that for a moment.

You do realise that Eisenman produced that book based on his own assumption that there MUST be a conspiracy?

Also .. you ought to know that Eisenman has never had access to the Dead Sea Scrolls, because he lacked training in interpreting paleographic documents.

As regards wiki .. well lol

I have Eisenman's book in front of me and he refers to texts from translations of the Dead Sea scrolls over 100 times throughout his 1000 page 'James the Brother of Jesus'.

As for wiki... Follow the sources cited (as you may have done when beginning your search for information about Eisenman)

BTW Even Paul in Acts records the deadly animosity between himself and James.

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:17pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Yadda

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #416 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of [rejecting the] authenticity of all Biblical scripture....

Moslems also make the same claim about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture.

Whereas the reasons of atheists, for rejecting the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture may differ, you sit in the same camp with moslems.

Which is OK [by me].

But i say, 'Let the buyer beware.'

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

Matthew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
[and Matthew 13:12]

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:56pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #417 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 9:13pm:

I have read numerous books regarding the issue of [rejecting the] authenticity of all Biblical scripture....

Moslems also make the same claim about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture.

Whereas the reasons of atheists, for rejecting the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture may differ, you sit in the same camp with moslems.

Which is OK [by me].

But i say, 'Let the buyer beware.'

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

There are already a myriad of worldviews where neither Christianity nor Islam play any part at all.

Would you say the same of a Chinese Zen Buddhist who happened to inquire into the origins of Christianity?

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Yadda

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #418 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

Yes, you could say that.

But in reply i could state that;
My hostility towards what good moslems choose to embrace, is based in reason, and comes from an understanding of what ISLAM promotes in the world, as human 'virtue'.
i.e.
ISLAM promotes the 'virtue' of the 'righteous' enslavement and murder of human beings, who choose to reject ISLAM's violent protestations, of being a virtuous philosophy which all of humanity MUST be forced to embrace.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

There are already a myriad of worldviews where neither Christianity nor Islam play any part at all.

Would you say the same of a Chinese Zen Buddhist who happened to inquire into the origins of Christianity?

No.

I would say, "Enquire away."

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« Last Edit: Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:39pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is Religion compatible with Evolution?
Reply #419 - Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:41pm

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 10:50pm:

Being cynical, i say that both moslems and atheists make those claims about the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture - because dismissing the authenticity of OT & NT Biblical scripture serves their purposes [of promoting a conflicting worldview, to the one which OT & NT Biblical scripture proposes].

That's a very spurious claim not worthy of you, Yadda.

I could say that your implacable hostility to Muslims inhibits your rationality.

Yes, you could say that.

But in reply i could state that;
My hostility towards what good moslems choose to embrace, is based in reason, and comes from an understanding of what ISLAM promotes in the world, as human 'virtue'.
i.e.
ISLAM promotes the 'virtue' of the 'righteous' enslavement and murder of human beings, who choose to reject ISLAM's violent protestations, of being a virtuous philosophy.

Then your understanding of Islam and a humanist atheist sensibility are diametrically opposed to each other. The fact that Muslims may or may not question the veracity of the NT and that Atheists may or may not do the same is merely incidental and not in any way necessarily linked or for the same reasons.

As I said... Your post is not (or should not) be worthy of you.

Yadda wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:30pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 20^th, 2011 at 11:09pm:

There are already a myriad of worldviews where neither Christianity nor Islam play any part at all.

Would you say the same of a Chinese Zen Buddhist who happened to inquire into the origins of Christianity?

No.

I would say, "Enquire away."

An example of the flaw in your logic.

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