Australian Politics Forum - Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #30 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:50pm This thread is not about the carbon tax. We can start a new thread on that subject if you like. This is a very appropriate topic, and we're getting some good discussion on it. I will move off topic posts into new threads if necessary.
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muso

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #31 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:55pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:37pm:

muso wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 11:24am:

The 10 + billion people might be a bit off the mark, but he's accurate enough in stating that higher latitude soils are thin, infertile and unsuited to large scale crops. To take an example, you couldn't grow mass cultures of crops in the soils of Hudson Bay even if the temperature was higher, and it's simplistic to think that you can just displace the crops 100 kilometres or so closer to the poles for every degree of temperature rise. Other climatic effects also come into play.

True, but you seem to be ignoring technologies like hydroponics and yeast culturing.....It IS possible to grow food supplies without using 'natural' stick the seed in the ground methods..So soil quality isn't a factor..

Do you realise the vast scale of the land area under cultivation when we talk about the various wheat belts, corn belts etc?

If the yield of any of these commercial crops were to drop by a significant factor, the results could be devastating, especially if it's a worldwide effect. OK, crops fail nowadays, but usually only on a regional basis.

Hydroponics and yeast culturing have an application, but not when it comes to large scale agriculture.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #32 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:16pm But seriously though, can anyone qualify what 'climate change' means, as a starting point to discussing how to adapt to it?
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Doctor Jolly

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #33 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:25pm

... wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:47pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

... wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:36pm:

Since 'climate change' means whatever the commentator-of-the-time wants it to mean, how can anyone speculate on how to benefit from it, when they can't even define it?

Wesley, this is not really the thread for you. We are talking about the scientific meaning. Not some crack pot homo shock jock meaning.

That's your problem - not willing to delve into your understanding of the topic, past blind adherence to the mantras of your climate change messiahs, like Gore and granaut.

Do I deny the modern lifetyle wreaks havoc on the ecosystem? Not at all....but I do question the motives of those who push hardest for a brand new tax, and roll my eyes at their willingness to subject every man woman and child to a brand new tax, yet in most cases will not make even the simplest chnage to their lifestyles to this end.

Wesley, there are literally hundreds of topics on hundreds of forums about that. Cant we just have a conversation about "what to do given the science is right" ? without having it hijacked ?

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...

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #34 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:28pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:25pm:

... wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:47pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:42pm:

... wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:36pm:

Since 'climate change' means whatever the commentator-of-the-time wants it to mean, how can anyone speculate on how to benefit from it, when they can't even define it?

Wesley, this is not really the thread for you. We are talking about the scientific meaning. Not some crack pot homo shock jock meaning.

That's your problem - not willing to delve into your understanding of the topic, past blind adherence to the mantras of your climate change messiahs, like Gore and granaut.

Do I deny the modern lifetyle wreaks havoc on the ecosystem? Not at all....but I do question the motives of those who push hardest for a brand new tax, and roll my eyes at their willingness to subject every man woman and child to a brand new tax, yet in most cases will not make even the simplest chnage to their lifestyles to this end.

Wesley, there are literally hundreds of topics on hundreds of forums about that. Cant we just have a conversation about "what to do given the science is right" ? without having it hijacked ?

My apologies, I am actually very interested in the topic, but have become jaded by the reduction of the issue to mere collections of catchphrases and soundbites by talking heads on both sides.

So sure, we can do a thread without having it hijacked (by me at least) but as mentioned before, it's pointless unless climate change can be defined.

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In the fullness of time...

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #35 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:30pm

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:44pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:37pm:

muso wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 11:24am:

The 10 + billion people might be a bit off the mark, but he's accurate enough in stating that higher latitude soils are thin, infertile and unsuited to large scale crops. To take an example, you couldn't grow mass cultures of crops in the soils of Hudson Bay even if the temperature was higher, and it's simplistic to think that you can just displace the crops 100 kilometres or so closer to the poles for every degree of temperature rise. Other climatic effects also come into play.

True, but you seem to be ignoring technologies like hydroponics and yeast culturing.....It IS possible to grow food supplies without using 'natural' stick the seed in the ground methods..So soil quality isn't a factor..

Neither technology is scalable to produce the quantities of food a few billion people eat.

But neither is the idea that 10+ billion will fit into Northern Europe (Or the Northern Hemisphere)....and isn't this thread about adaption TO climate change??..
What's the difference between a 200Ha crop of 'natural' grown wheat, and the same amount of wheat, grown hydroponically??....$$, that's all.

It 'might' cost a little more, initially, but it's still doable..especially if the soil isn't any good..

Humans are smart, we can adapt using our technological expertise....If all else fails, there's always the Soylent Green method..

You obviously don't read enough scifi stories..
Isn't that the Environnazi (Greens) 'Plan'....for us all to live in 'carbon neutral' communes, generating 'green' fart power, making our clothes from hemp and eating lentils??

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #36 - Jul 6^th, 2011 at 3:03pm Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #37 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 9:53am Off-Topic replies have been moved to this Topic.
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Emma

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #38 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 12:06am

That's a big ask, apparently.

Muso- my 'natural bio-controls only idea' is a goal. By natural I mean everything we can do to enhance the natural processes that actually run this planet. You know - Bees, Wasps, Birds, Fungi, Bacteria ,.....la la la la la.
Genetic engineering is necessary it seems, and acceptable in this context. As is research and application in better health. I do not think that genetically engineered FOOD is.
It seems stupid to me for major agri-culture companies to invest in and develop special Rice , eg, which is great in yield,
BUT must have a certain other thing supplied by that same agri business. So greedy - so short -sighted. And likely to contribute to a great famine in the future. Roll Eyes

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live every day

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muso

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #39 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 10:02am

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 2:30pm:

Doctor Jolly wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:44pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 1:37pm:

muso wrote on Jul 6^th, 2011 at 11:24am:

The 10 + billion people might be a bit off the mark, but he's accurate enough in stating that higher latitude soils are thin, infertile and unsuited to large scale crops. To take an example, you couldn't grow mass cultures of crops in the soils of Hudson Bay even if the temperature was higher, and it's simplistic to think that you can just displace the crops 100 kilometres or so closer to the poles for every degree of temperature rise. Other climatic effects also come into play.

True, but you seem to be ignoring technologies like hydroponics and yeast culturing.....It IS possible to grow food supplies without using 'natural' stick the seed in the ground methods..So soil quality isn't a factor..

Neither technology is scalable to produce the quantities of food a few billion people eat.

But neither is the idea that 10+ billion will fit into Northern Europe (Or the Northern Hemisphere)....and isn't this thread about adaption TO climate change??..
What's the difference between a 200Ha crop of 'natural' grown wheat, and the same amount of wheat, grown hydroponically??....$$, that's all.

It 'might' cost a little more, initially, but it's still doable..especially if the soil isn't any good..

Humans are smart, we can adapt using our technological expertise....If all else fails, there's always the Soylent Green method..

You obviously don't read enough scifi stories..
Isn't that the Environnazi (Greens) 'Plan'....for us all to live in 'carbon neutral' communes, generating 'green' fart power, making our clothes from hemp and eating lentils??

The thing about Soylent Green is that it was science fiction. It's much more difficult to do that that just sow wheat and let nature take its course.

What you describe is not doable.

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #40 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 10:47am Interesting what you deem to be 'off topic' muso.
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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #41 - Jul 7^th, 2011 at 11:29pm 'Soylent Green' was science fiction. This is a rebuttal? Lots of things 'were' science fiction - but are NOW science FACT.
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muso

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #42 - Jul 8^th, 2011 at 8:19am

Emma wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

'Soylent Green' was science fiction. This is a rebuttal?

Lots of things 'were' science fiction - but are NOW science FACT.

You just have to compare the economics of making "Soylent Green" with the economics of growing wheat. It's a no-brainer. It will always be just science fiction.

Probably the nearest thing we get to it is yeast extract (for example vegemite). It would be far too expensive to produce it using a dedicated process, but because it's a by-product (waste stream) from beer production, it becomes economical.

By the way, how many happy little people who spread it on their toast every morning actually know how this totally artificial substance is manufactured?

Of course the advertising spin is that it's good for you and natural, and most people believe that so hey, who cares?

(By the way, I enjoy vegemite - don't worry)

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ?
Reply #43 - Jul 8^th, 2011 at 12:02pm

muso wrote on Jul 8^th, 2011 at 8:19am:

Emma wrote on Jul 7^th, 2011 at 11:29pm:

'Soylent Green' was science fiction. This is a rebuttal?

Lots of things 'were' science fiction - but are NOW science FACT.

You just have to compare the economics of making "Soylent Green" with the economics of growing wheat. It's a no-brainer. It will always be just science fiction.

Probably the nearest thing we get to it is yeast extract (for example vegemite). It would be far too expensive to produce it using a dedicated process, but because it's a by-product (waste stream) from beer production, it becomes economical.

By the way, how many happy little people who spread it on their toast every morning actually know how this totally artificial substance is manufactured?

Of course the advertising spin is that it's good for you and natural, and most people believe that so hey, who cares?

(By the way, I enjoy vegemite - don't worry)

Well then what is the solution to problem of food production in poor soil northern hemisphere areas??
You've rejected my thought on hydroponic assistance or yeast culture supplementation..(the Soylent Green thing was a joke btw).

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Doctor Jolly Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3808	Re: Climate Change. How to benefit from it ? Reply #44 - Jul 8^th, 2011 at 12:22pm There may not be one.
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