Australian Politics Forum - The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax

sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #60 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:11pm

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:02pm:

skippy. wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:52pm:

Labor are incapable and incompetent. It's that simple

I tend to have to agree.
The only problem is, there is no point dumping a bad government for a worse one.

The muppets could show up this govt.

The libs would piss all over this govt for competence and ability.

Then explain why Abbott has not managed to get out of negative approval territory since he took leadership.

The fact is the only reason people are moving to the liberal side is because this government has damaged itself incredibly because of its inability to communicate. But rest assured that the fact people don't like Abbott just as much as they don't like Gillard goes to show that people are not happy with the current proposition in Australia politics, and don't give a liberal government much confidence.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #61 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:12pm

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:11pm:

It says only idiots pay attention to leader ratings. Here's a challenge for your limited intellect, check out the TPP and see what that tells you

It tells me that Labor is doing its own damage on potentially many different issues (one example being consistently hampering on about climate change and carbon tax rather than sustainability and carbon tax). However, what I can also tell from the opinion polls is the Australian people have as much confidence in Abbott as they do in Gillard. Which is exactly how I feel, and I can tell you that isn't very good for your little pony or for the liberals considering that it means most people have no confidence in its leadership.

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cods

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #62 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:20pm

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:02pm:

skippy. wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:52pm:

Labor are incapable and incompetent. It's that simple

I tend to have to agree.
The only problem is, there is no point dumping a bad government for a worse one.

The muppets could show up this govt.

The libs would piss all over this govt for competence and ability.

maybe its just me jason.. but I sincerly worry about people that march through the streets.. DEMANDING TO BE TAXED

maybe its because I have never seen anything like it before..and to my knowledge we are the only country that has this amazing group of people that DEMAND TO BE TAXED..even more surprising is the fact, they have no idea what they will be taxed, and how it will affect them.

its all a big secret. its so big even the govt doesnt know what it will entail.

its rather bizarre that they talk about something for almost 2 years..

still have a big portion of the country against it.

yet cant give us the details.not only on what this will cost

but just what they expect this TAX to do regarding GW..

I am over then saying everyone agrees CARBON TAX is the way to go......why??? what will it do exactly what can we expect?..

if you know tell us.. is that too much to ask?

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #63 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:29pm

cods wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:20pm:

maybe its just me jason.. but I sincerly worry about people that march through the streets.. DEMANDING TO BE TAXED

maybe its because I have never seen anything like it before..and to my knowledge we are the only country that has this amazing group of people that DEMAND TO BE TAXED..even more surprising is the fact, they have no idea what they will be taxed, and how it will affect them.

its all a big secret. its so big even the govt doesnt know what it will entail.

its rather bizarre that they talk about something for almost 2 years..

still have a big portion of the country against it.

yet cant give us the details.not only on what this will cost

but just what they expect this TAX to do regarding GW..

I am over then saying everyone agrees CARBON TAX is the way to go......why??? what will it do exactly what can we expect?..

if you know tell us.. is that too much to ask?

1. People aren't being taxed. Companies Are. Other companies and people pay these companies in increased costs, but then receive compensation.

- Another example of either a person just not interested in receiving information or the government not selling their message properly.

I'm personally not for a carbon tax, but for a pricing mechanism on carbon and preferably an ETS - let the market handle itself with of course some level of regulation. Makes sense, and more sense then direct action which has been tried and failed. IN all trial and error situations, you simply don't retry things that produce error.

But with this carbon tax in general, the good thing I see from it is that there is compensation; meaning people receive money from the government. That means that all of a sudden you get more money in your pay package each week/fortnight/month, and as you see your costs increase you choose to either spend more, or reduce your expense.

It's like the petrol scenario. Petrol went up to $1.50 at the time when the government was giving us tax cuts. The large car market DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY and the SMALL CAR MARKET INCREASED SIGNIFICANTLY. Not because of safety, but because they are cheaper to run. People chose to SAVE their money rather then spend it BY changing their habit. Which is EXACTLY how this carbon tax is intended to work.

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« Last Edit: Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:36pm by sir prince duke alevine »

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #64 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:48pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Then isn't it smarter to do something that WILL actually address that problem (like money for R&D and incentives for green energy) instead of wasting time on hollow rhetoric, 'feel good' cosmetic ideas and name calling???

Most proponents of AGW seem to spend more time abusing sceptics than they do suggesting usable, real world alternatives..

It's all very well to campaign for the closing of 'fossil fuel' power and industry....BUT, until there is a viable AND affordable alternative, it's a pointless exercise..

To get the affordable alternative you have to raise demand. Computers didn't become cheap overnight.

To raise demand, you have to encourage people to want to use it, AND make the other thing inferior. Which is why pricing carbon is the best mechanism for growing the renewable energy sector.

Giving money for R&D is useless. Companies are making BILLIONS in profit, as as part of their CSR it is up to them to do their own R&D. Not have the government provide them with what would amount to something like 1% of their profit for R&D.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #65 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:09pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:07pm:

skippy. wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Jason Crowther wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:52pm:

Labor are incapable and incompetent. It's that simple

I tend to have to agree.
The only problem is, there is no point dumping a bad government for a worse one.

And the interesting part being that while this government is seen as incompetent and bad, Abbott's approval rating is still negative, and very close to Gillards. What does that say?

Doesn't that say something???
People would rather 'put up' with a Coalition Government, with Tony Abbott as PM, than stick with the ALP (with Bob Brown's hand up Julia Gillard's back)...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #66 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:14pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:09pm:

Doesn't that say something???
People would rather 'put up' with a Coalition Government, with Tony Abbott as PM, than stick with the ALP (with Bob Brown's hand up Julia Gillard's back)...

Oh I'm not saying it's not bad. I'm simply saying the current political situation in Australia is nothing for either party or party follower to gloat about. Both leaders are as bad as each other and both parties are as bad as each other. And it's becoming sickening.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #67 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:17pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 3:48pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 2:55pm:

Then isn't it smarter to do something that WILL actually address that problem (like money for R&D and incentives for green energy) instead of wasting time on hollow rhetoric, 'feel good' cosmetic ideas and name calling???

Most proponents of AGW seem to spend more time abusing sceptics than they do suggesting usable, real world alternatives..

It's all very well to campaign for the closing of 'fossil fuel' power and industry....BUT, until there is a viable AND affordable alternative, it's a pointless exercise..

To get the affordable alternative you have to raise demand. Computers didn't become cheap overnight.

To raise demand, you have to encourage people to want to use it, AND make the other thing inferior. Which is why pricing carbon is the best mechanism for growing the renewable energy sector.

Giving money for R&D is useless. Companies are making BILLIONS in profit, as as part of their CSR it is up to them to do their own R&D. Not have the government provide them with what would amount to something like 1% of their profit for R&D.

No, Computers became cheaper as the technology for parts production became 'simpler' and more common place..

ALL technology becomes cheaper over time..as the production process is streamlined..A 'hand-made' car is vastly more expensive than a mass produced one..

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Verge

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #68 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:21pm

You know why they cant sell it, because most of the time they themselves dont fully understand it, and its policy on the run. They have to hand out the sound bytes they are told because they dont have it in full themselves.

How can they tell us the Carbon tax will be so great, when they wont even tell us how much it will be, how much the compensation will be etc.

Imagine how their wife feels. Laying in bed, with their ALP husband at the end of it telling them how good its going to be and how much they are going to rock their world, before climbing into bed and falling asleep.

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And why not, if you will permit me; why shouldn’t I, if you will permit me; spend my first week as prime minister, should that happen, on this, on your, country - Abbott with the Garma People Aug 13

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cods

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #69 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:15pm

Verge wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 4:21pm:

You know why they cant sell it, because most of the time they themselves dont fully understand it, and its policy on the run. They have to hand out the sound bytes they are told because they dont have it in full themselves.

How can they tell us the Carbon tax will be so great, when they wont even tell us how much it will be, how much the compensation will be etc.

Imagine how their wife feels. Laying in bed, with their ALP husband at the end of it telling them how good its going to be and how much they are going to rock their world, before climbing into bed and falling asleep.

I thought combat was selling it... although he seems to have disappeared for now maybe hes having a breakdown somewhere..

how about we call it the Claytons TAX.. or even the BLAME TAX.

our power is all going up on the 1st July and this I believe is just the warm up before the big one drops on us..

the mere fact electricity plays a part in just about everything we live and breath by these days..means we will be affected over and over and over again.. it wont be just the miners TAX that we get hit with..it will be each and everyone that is in business who can pass their cost on that will affect us. we have even been told our rates will go up just to pay for the extra in power to our municipalities. or less street lighting.

we are so loaded down with bills these days there is no fat anywhere..so it will all be passed along the line..

perhaps they have decided to give all the poor people a raise and bring them into line with a back benchers pay..

how can these people possible understand how a poor person lives or dies as the case may be..when they have never had to survive on what these people are expected to survive on..

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #70 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:46pm

I believe climate change is being caused in part by human actions.

I do not support the tax.

I therefore all into the category being discussed at the start (I'll be honest, I haven't read through 5 pages of this thread this morning, merely the first 10 or so posts).

I do not support the tax because I believe it will do NOTHING to address the issue of global climate change.

Nothing is being done to cut down emissions from countries which cause far greater emissions than anyone else - China now emits more than the US & Canada combined!

Therefore I see it as pointless to hit Australian households, grab revenue and redistribute it to lower income people and achieve basically nothing in regards to global emissions.

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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Cliff Richard Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 558	Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax Reply #71 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:47pm would you support a tax in the u.s.a if it demonstrably reduced carbon emissions, andrei? the u.s.a is a major emitter.
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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #72 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm

Cliff Richard wrote on Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:47pm:

would you support a tax in the u.s.a if it demonstrably reduced carbon emissions, andrei? the u.s.a is a *major* emitter.

IS there a 'tax' anywhere in the World that 'demonstrably' reduces carbon emissions?? And if so, what's it called, and which country has it???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax Reply #73 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:53pm This utter BS about only doing things if they are big enough to matter, would leave most without any reason to ever do anything. Many hands make light work, everybody pulls their weight??? It seems simple honesty and decency do not carry much weight in the righties world view.
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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The Wrong Message on the Carbon Tax
Reply #74 - Jun 14^th, 2011 at 6:55pm

The United States is already taking definitive action on climate change.

Some states more than others.

Emissions from the USA have reduced in recent years.

In stark contrast China's have increased and are forecast to grow further.

In the USA, we are already playing our part (*speaking as a US taxpayer and resident here).

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Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination - Oscar Wilde

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