Australian Politics Forum - Almost half of our species fully or overfished

freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #75 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:51am

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Yes but you seem oblivious to the point that good sounders were around 30 years ago and that a sounder is not a huge advantage in catching them.

They were around, but were very expensive. There are much better ones out these days. Sounders and GPS do make a difference. No idea what makes you think I am oblivious. Nothing in my argument rests on them being invented in the last five years. For someone so into 'anecdotal evidence' you forget inconventient facts like not being able to afford this stuff when it first came out.

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So you admit you have no direct experence to back up your anecdote?

Which anecdote are you talking about? The anecdote that technology is having a big impact on fishing pressure?

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Don't you think that there is a chance that there is no spearfishing ban on blue groper in Qld because they are not found there?

No PJ. The converse is true. There are very few there because you can spear them. At least, there are none in the easily accessible locations. Just over the border they are everywhere. There are so many that when you get used to spearing on the QLD side of the boarder then jump to the other side it is pretty difficult because they are everywhere and they distract you. There is a clear and sudden change at the border.

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Two examples counting the monk seal.

No PJ. You have a single example of a target species decreasing due to marine parks. You have found several 'articles' postulating their existence, so it is not like no-one has thought to check, though you do seem to think that because the title of the paper containing the only evidence had the word Tasmania in it they have only looked in Tasmania. For someone who complains about 'faith based' fisheries, it is kind of hypocritical to take these postulations seriously when they are not only almost purely theorietical, the evidence clearly points the other way.

The Monk Seal is not a target species. It has no relevance to the fisheries management debate. Like I said, it is expected that many non-target species will go down in numbers in a marine park. This tells you nothing at all about the impact on target species.

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And given that the benefits of marine parks are largely theoretical you point is rather ironic.

No PJ. Your postulations are theoretical. The scientific consensus is in favour of marine parks because of the evidence, not because of the theory.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #76 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 10:15am

] Quote:

Yes but you seem oblivious to the point that good sounders were around 30 years ago and that a sounder is not a huge advantage in catching them.

They were around, but were very expensive. There are much better ones out these days. Sounders and GPS do make a difference.

They weren't overly expensive and it would be rare to find a keen offshore angler who did not have one. They worked very well too. I should know I had an 1980's model Furuno for a long time. PS: has boating or the general cost of living gotten cheaper in the past 30 years?

No idea what makes you think I am oblivious. Nothing in my argument rests on them being invented in the last five years. For someone so into 'anecdotal evidence' you forget inconventient facts like not being able to afford this stuff when it first came out.

See above. Also my point is that they don't enable you to catch drastically more fish. Eg the most efficent way to catch snapper is to anchor up and berely them - not to drive around pinging them with you new fangled echo sounder (maybe you have been looking at too many sounder ads).

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So you admit you have no direct experence to back up your anecdote?

Which anecdote are you talking about? The anecdote that technology is having a big impact on fishing pressure?

Yep, specifically with regard to sounders and snapper.

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Don't you think that there is a chance that there is no spearfishing ban on blue groper in Qld because they are not found there?

No PJ. The converse is true. There are very few there because you can spear them. At least, there are none in the easily accessible locations. Just over the border they are everywhere. There are so many that when you get used to spearing on the QLD side of the boarder then jump to the other side it is pretty difficult because they are everywhere and they distract you. There is a clear and sudden change at the border.

Maybe - but there natural range only includes southern Qld. In there stronghold of NSW spearfishing is banned (and in SA too).
PS: where are you trying to go with this given that you want to re-introduce spearfishing for groper!

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Two examples counting the monk seal.

No PJ. You have a single example of a target species decreasing due to marine parks. You have found several 'articles' postulating their existence, so it is not like no-one has thought to check, though you do seem to think that because the title of the paper containing the only evidence had the word Tasmania in it they have only looked in Tasmania.

The paper was a review of Tasmainian marine parks!

For someone who complains about 'faith based' fisheries, it is kind of hypocritical to take these postulations seriously when they are not only almost purely theorietical, the evidence clearly points the other way.

The 'evidence' for marine parks for fisheries management is just as theoretical, as has been pointed out by many fisheries scientist.

The Monk Seal is not a target species. It has no relevance to the fisheries management debate. Like I said, it is expected that many non-target species will go down in numbers in a marine park. This tells you nothing at all about the impact on target species.

Yes but marine parks are largely justified/ promoted for conservation reasons.

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And given that the benefits of marine parks are largely theoretical you point is rather ironic.

No PJ. Your postulations are theoretical. The scientific consensus is in favour of marine parks because of the evidence, not because of the theory.

Yes run back to your consensus device when your in trouble.

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« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:08am by pjb05 »

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #77 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:08am

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PS: has boating or the general cost of living gotten cheaper in the past 30 years?

Yes. How much did you pay for your first sounder?

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not to drive around pinging them with you new fangled echo sounder (maybee you have been looking at too many sounder ads)

No PJ. Just talking to other fishermen who do it.

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PS: where are you trying to go with this given that you want to re-introduce spearfishing for groper!

It should be fairly obvious - I want to reintroduce spearing of groper. Provided they get enough protection in marine parks of course. This is another species that would get an enourmouse benefit from marine parks. I think they get too much protection alerady in NSW. They are everywhere.

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The paper was a review of Tasmainian marine parks!

And you interpretation was that you could only come up with one example because the paper that had the example ahd Tasmania in the title.

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The 'evidence' for marine parks for fisheries management is just as theoretical

No it is not PJ. It is almost entirely based on real catches and real observations.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #78 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 5:04pm

[] Quote:

PS: has boating or the general cost of living gotten cheaper in the past 30 years?

Yes. How much did you pay for your first sounder?

It came with the boat (which was second hand).

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not to drive around pinging them with you new fangled echo sounder (maybee you have been looking at too many sounder ads)

No PJ. Just talking to other fishermen who do it.

The can't be very good fishermen if they think that is the most effective way to catch snapper (not that you'd know).

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PS: where are you trying to go with this given that you want to re-introduce spearfishing for groper!

It should be fairly obvious - I want to reintroduce spearing of groper. Provided they get enough protection in marine parks of course. This is another species that would get an enourmouse benefit from marine parks. I think they get too much protection alerady in NSW. They are everywhere.

How would they benefit if they are thriving everywhere now? You plan would leave them depleted in most places and thriving in a few areas.

PS: Of what possible merit is there in spearing a slow moving, inquisitive fish like groper?

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The paper was a review of Tasmainian marine parks!

And you interpretation was that you could only come up with one example because the paper that had the example ahd Tasmania in the title.

Who said that I have done a worldwide search? PS such a search would be hampered by the fact there have been very few rigorous studies done on marine parks.

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The 'evidence' for marine parks for fisheries management is just as theoretical

No it is not PJ. It is almost entirely based on real catches and real observations.

See above. Very few studies show the rigor to make such a conclusion. That statement just reflects your faith in a cause.

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #79 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 6:46pm

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How would they benefit if they are thriving everywhere now?

Spearfishermen would benefit, not the fish.

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You plan would leave them depleted in most places and thriving in a few areas.

Fortunately there are no fences in the ocean. Fish don't pay much attention to lines on maps.

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PS: Of what possible merit is there in spearing a slow moving, inquisitive fish like groper?

So you can eat it. Catching fish is hardly a 'man vs beast' type activity.

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Who said that I have done a worldwide search?

Read between the lines PJ. All those articles from 'academics' that you post postulating the theoretical possibility that target species might decline, and they can only come up with a single example. On the other hand, there is mountains of evidence of the increase in stocks of target species. Can you offer a rational interpretation of this?

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PS such a search would be hampered by the fact there have been very few rigorous studies done on marine parks.

There have been plenty. I have referred you to very large books that list references on marine park research.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #80 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 7:58pm

] Quote:

How would they benefit if they are thriving everywhere now?

Spearfishermen would benefit, not the fish.

Didn't you say groper were another species that would benefit enormously from marine parks.

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You plan would leave them depleted in most places and thriving in a few areas.

Fortunately there are no fences in the ocean. Fish don't pay much attention to lines on maps.

And how does that sit with your assertion that groper are abundant in NSW and scarce in adjacent SE Qld and that this is due to the impact of spearfishing?

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PS: Of what possible merit is there in spearing a slow moving, inquisitive fish like groper?

So you can eat it. Catching fish is hardly a 'man vs beast' type activity.

If there is no sporting merit you might as well just buy the fish to eat.

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Who said that I have done a worldwide search?

Read between the lines PJ. All those articles from 'academics' that you post postulating the theoretical possibility that target species might decline, and they can only come up with a single example. On the other hand, there is mountains of evidence of the increase in stocks of target species. Can you offer a rational interpretation of this?

They are also talking about adverse ecological and conservation effects. Also you are confusing some observed increases in fish numbers in a reserve to a fishery wide benefit.

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PS such a search would be hampered by the fact there have been very few rigorous studies done on marine parks.

There have been plenty. I have referred you to very large books that list references on marine park research.

Yes there is a lot of literature, references and enthusiasm but very little rigorous empiracle science. Recall the 'Burdens of Proof' paper which highlighted this problem. It the time of writing they couldn't find one well designed before and after study assessing the effect of a marine park.

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #81 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:22pm

Quote:

Didn't you say groper were another species that would benefit enormously from marine parks.

Sure, in QLD. Given the absurdly restrictive limits on them already in NSW I doubt it would make much difference, though you probably would get a few more of the enourmous ones you see occasionally in the more remote areas.

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And how does that sit with your assertion that groper are abundant in NSW and scarce in adjacent SE Qld and that this is due to the impact of spearfishing?

The fishermen do pay attention. I'm sure there are a few speros that pick off the odd one near the border, but it is hardly an effective design.

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If there is no sporting merit you might as well just buy the fish to eat.

It is still fun. Obviously they would get difficult to spear pretty quickly. I'm not sure why you have some kind of problem with this. Picking mushrooms is hardly a sport either, but that is not a good reason to dismiss it.

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They are also talking about adverse ecological and conservation effects.

You should start a new thread on this.

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Also you are confusing some observed increases in fish numbers in a reserve to a fishery wide benefit.

There is evidence of both. However, given your absurd speculation that there will be decreases we should start with the simple stuff.

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It the time of writing they couldn't find one well designed before and after study assessing the effect of a marine park.

Obviously they are not going to be well designed from a scientific perspective. Would you like to be treated like a guinea pig?

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #82 - Sep 17^th, 2011 at 11:37pm

Blue groper can be speared in WA there's a bag limit of one per day.

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“We want greater protection for our fish stocks. This new management regime is crucial to ensure WA maintains a high quality and sustainable recreational fishery.

“Scientific evidence overwhelmingly indicates that our fisheries are at risk unless immediate action is taken. The commercial sector has already addressed this issue and now it is time for the recreational fishing sector to do its part.”

Mr Moore said that in the past decade, population growth and the greater use of equipment such as global positioning systems and echo sounders had made a huge impact on fish stocks.

http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/Pages/default.aspx?ItemId=132159

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pjb05 Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1404 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #83 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:24am Once again Grey, is there some point to your cut and paste? All it proves as far as I can see is that traditional fisheries management is working.
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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #84 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:46am

[] Quote:

Didn't you say groper were another species that would benefit enormously from marine parks.

Sure, in QLD. Given the absurdly restrictive limits on them already in NSW I doubt it would make much difference, though you probably would get a few more of the enourmous ones you see occasionally in the more remote areas.

Your still allowed to fish for them in NSW with a bag limit of 2 per day. As far as fishing is concerned you want to drastically increase restrictions with your NTZ's!

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And how does that sit with your assertion that groper are abundant in NSW and scarce in adjacent SE Qld and that this is due to the impact of spearfishing?

The fishermen do pay attention. I'm sure there are a few speros that pick off the odd one near the border, but it is hardly an effective design.

The point is that it makes your suggestion of a spillover effect look like b/s.

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If there is no sporting merit you might as well just buy the fish to eat.

It is still fun. Obviously they would get difficult to spear pretty quickly. I'm not sure why you have some kind of problem with this. Picking mushrooms is hardly a sport either, but that is not a good reason to dismiss it.

Well to each his own - it seems a rather mindless activity to me. And more to the point hardly worth the big stick of marine parks just to cater for it.

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They are also talking about adverse ecological and conservation effects.

You should start a new thread on this.

It's been mentioned before. The monk seal would be an example of a negative conservation effect. Another paper suggested that if you were trying to keep the same yeild under a marine park regime you would have to step up ecologically damaging methods like trawling in the areas still opent to fishing.

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Also you are confusing some observed increases in fish numbers in a reserve to a fishery wide benefit.

There is evidence of both. However, given your absurd speculation that there will be decreases we should start with the simple stuff.

The evidence of fishery wide benefits is thin and limited to poorly regulated areas where any fisheries management initiative would likely give a discernable improvement.

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It the time of writing they couldn't find one well designed before and after study assessing the effect of a marine park.

Obviously they are not going to be well designed from a scientific perspective. Would you like to be treated like a guinea pig?

Then why claim scientific evidence? A consensus in fact?

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #85 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 10:16am

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The point is that it makes your suggestion of a spillover effect look like b/s.

How so?

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Then why claim scientific evidence? A consensus in fact?

A consensus is just that - a consensus. Not being able to do well designed experiments with government regulation does not defeat the purpose of studying it. It just makes it a bit harder.

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #86 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 11:22am

pjb05 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:24am:

Once again Grey, is there some point to your cut and paste? All it proves as far as I can see is that traditional fisheries management is working.

Depends on your bias I guess. Obviously, (to me) if 'traditional' methods have been in use long enough to be called traditional and stocks keep on plunging,(along with the size of the fishing fleet), so that the traditional ploy has to be used more and more often in ever more draconian fashion, it's time to try something else. Which is what WA is doing in declaring more marine parks.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #87 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 12:58pm

Grey wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 11:22am:

pjb05 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:24am:

Once again Grey, is there some point to your cut and paste? All it proves as far as I can see is that traditional fisheries management is working.

Depends on your bias I guess. Obviously, (to me) if 'traditional' methods have been in use long enough to be called traditional and stocks keep on plunging,(along with the size of the fishing fleet), so that the traditional ploy has to be used more and more often in ever more draconian fashion, it's time to try something else. Which is what WA is doing in declaring more marine parks.

Yes that's FD's mantra - and you both seem to be oblivious to the fact that it has been totally debunked here. It is policy in this country for instance that our fisheries managers take action when a stock is just starting on the slope to depletion.

Also there is ample evidence of rebounding stocks with mild traditional measures. How can you bandy the word 'draconian' when you want to use the big stick of marine parks. PS: do you really think 'trying something new' is a reasonable justification?

PS: marine parks in Australia have been declared for largely political reasons - not to manage our fish stocks. They haven't been initiated by any fisheries department for instance.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #88 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 1:01pm

freediver wrote on Sep 17^th, 2011 at 9:22pm:

Quote:

[quote]It the time of writing they couldn't find one well designed before and after study assessing the effect of a marine park.

Obviously they are not going to be well designed from a scientific perspective. Would you like to be treated like a guinea pig?

Thats what your asking us to to in being ahead of the World in declaring marine parks.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53293 At my desk.	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #89 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 1:29pm No PJ. I am suggesting we go with the best available advice. A well designed experiment would involve repeatedly setting up marine parks that you fully expect to not work very well to prove to yourself (and the scientific community) that they do not work very well. Is that what you want?
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