Australian Politics Forum - Almost half of our species fully or overfished

Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #45 - Sep 11^th, 2011 at 10:44pm

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Grey wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 9:20pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 9:53am:

Quote:

Really? You brought up economics. How come fish farmings companies such as Tassal Group are so profitable?

Because there are not enough fish to go around. It is not the cost of harvesting fish that is driving up the price, but the shortage of them.
Can you give a link to where you got those numbers from you posted earlier?

Spoken like a true economist.

In a good way?

Go on try to tell me how a shortage of fish has no bearing on the cost of harvesting.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #46 - Sep 12^th, 2011 at 7:28am

date=1315742026]pjb05 wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 9:31am:

Here's a reference from the ABC Science website:

Survival of the fishes

By Stephen Pincock
Feed the world: It is estimated 110 million tonnes of seafood is eaten each year. (Source: istockphoto)
Related Stories
Video: Closing the Net (Landline) (Science Online Video)

. [/b]

The figures look to me as if random numbers are written on bits of paper then pulled out of a barrel. From 'Closing the Net'

http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2010/s2925799.htm

Quote:

SEAN MURPHY: The NSW Parliament is investigating the recreational fishing sector. Amateur fishers are thought to take about a quarter of Australia's 200 MILLION tonne of annual wild-catch take, and conservation groups have used the recreational fishing inquiry to push for no-take zones to be increased from the current average level of six per cent to at least 20 per cent.

That appeared a frightening figure for Australia alone. But wait...wasn't I just told that 110 million tonnes of SEAFOOD is eaten worldwide? Then...

Australia has 1/30th of the World average fishing pressure.

Quote:

SEAN MURPHY: Graham Turk runs the Sydney Fish Market, Australia's largest, with an annual trade of more than 13,000 tonnes of fresh fish. It's the principal source of fresh seafood for more than a quarter of Australia's population.

Now that says Australia's annual catch is under 52, THOUSAND tonnes. All bit sad on the cred side innit? Nevertheless...

Quote:

GARY SCHOER, NATIONAL PARKS ASSOCIATION: Well, 20 per cent is the minimal figure that has been recommended by the International Union for Conservation of Nature that needs to be conserved worldwide if we are to have sustainable fish stocks into the future, because there are predictions that the whole fisheries could collapse by about 2048 if current trends around much of the world continue.

The IUCN has been stacked by greenies and marine park advocates. Also why should we follow their recommendations when we already are the World standard for sustainable fisheries.

I'm inclined to believe that. Because when not only proffessional but amateure fisherman are using military equipment to catch an already dwindling world wide stock of fish.

What is military style about amateur fishing? Even a lot of commerical methods such as longlining are realtively inefficient. PS our stocks aren't dwindling, didn't you read the article I put up?

When fishing has already caused collapses of stocks like North Sea cod, using primitive equpment by todays standards, it don't take Sherlock to predict the outcome .

As above.

I

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #47 - Sep 12^th, 2011 at 7:40am If you're going to quote PJ, which I appreciate, it would be nice to at least mention the author <coughs>
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pjb05 Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1404 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #48 - Sep 12^th, 2011 at 4:37pm Grey wrote on Sep 12^th, 2011 at 7:40am: If you're going to quote PJ, which I appreciate, it would be nice to at least mention the author <coughs> Look a bit closer; the reference and author are in the top of the quote you put up.
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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #49 - Sep 12^th, 2011 at 10:20pm

Grey wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 10:44pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 10:03pm:

Grey wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 9:20pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 11^th, 2011 at 9:53am:

Quote:

Really? You brought up economics. How come fish farmings companies such as Tassal Group are so profitable?

Because there are not enough fish to go around. It is not the cost of harvesting fish that is driving up the price, but the shortage of them.
Can you give a link to where you got those numbers from you posted earlier?

Spoken like a true economist.

In a good way?

Go on try to tell me how a shortage of fish has no bearing on the cost of harvesting.

That was not my argument Grey.

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #50 - Sep 13^th, 2011 at 3:30am

freediver wrote on Sep 12^th, 2011 at 10:20pm:

That was not my argument Grey.

Sorry FD.

I think this discussion has been confused by the fact that there are so many different types of fish. Obviously marine parks will work very well for species that use certain reefs as nurseries and will not work at all for pelagic ... I had to check that

Apparently Tuna Do have a breeding ground off the coast of java. I wonder if that's a marine park?

Anyway I think farmed fish is the answer for now.

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pjb05 Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1404 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #51 - Sep 13^th, 2011 at 7:14am Grey wrote on Sep 13^th, 2011 at 3:30am: [] That was not my argument Grey. [/quote] You also said aquaculture is more expensive FD - and that this is an impediment to it supplimenting the wild catch.
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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #52 - Sep 13^th, 2011 at 7:18am

Grey wrote on Sep 13^th, 2011 at 3:30am:

[Sorry FD.

I think this discussion has been confused by the fact that there are so many different types of fish. Obviously marine parks will work very well for species that use certain reefs as nurseries and will not work at all for pelagic ... I had to check that

Apparently Tuna Do have a breeding ground off the coast of java. I wonder if that's a marine park?

Not neccessarily, if the fish are sedentary then you you not going to get much of a spillover effect. In addition the fishing pressure may well be displaced from the reserve so once again there are no favours done for the areas still open to fishing. No net fisheries or environmental gain results. You can even get adverse changes in species assemblages - as you alluded to different species can respond quite differently to a reserve.

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #53 - Sep 13^th, 2011 at 10:06pm

Grey, I think the way to handle that is to target the size of the NTZs to the tendency of the least mobile fish in an area to move. Even apparently sedentary fish will move a long way, especially if there is overcrowding in one direction and open niche (fished waters) in the other. For the fish that move further, you will have no choice but to rely on more traditional tools, and/or targetted protection of key areas like spawning grounds for species like tailor.

When it comes to species like tuna, they may move a long way, but a lot of their territory is areas without significant catches of sedentary species, so you just need bigger NTZs in open ocean. This could even reduce the costs associated with catching them, by putting the NTZs in the 'middle' bits that are furthest from the ports.

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #54 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 2:00am

freediver wrote on Sep 13^th, 2011 at 10:06pm:

Grey, I think the way to handle that is to target the size of the NTZs to the tendency of the least mobile fish in an area to move. Even apparently sedentary fish will move a long way, especially if there is overcrowding in one direction and open niche (fished waters) in the other. For the fish that move further, you will have no choice but to rely on more traditional tools, and/or targetted protection of key areas like spawning grounds for species like tailor.

When it comes to species like tuna, they may move a long way, but a lot of their territory is areas without significant catches of sedentary species, so you just need bigger NTZs in open ocean. This could even reduce the costs associated with catching them, by putting the NTZs in the 'middle' bits that are furthest from the ports.

Yes I think I'd agree with all of that. But then with regard to the latter point why not declare that all open sea outside of 'territorial waters' is a marine park? The whole subject of territorial waters needs tidying up and placed under an 'international law' with each country getting an equal sea border.

I'f that were the case then the situation would be more a kin to the position on land. Farms and ranges supplying the bulk of food from domestic and semi-domesticated animals , while wild species are left largely alone unless, like kangaroos, they stray too much onto farmed land.

I do think you're being a little over resistant to aquaculture. It'll be problematic, what isn't? But at the end of the day I think it still offers the best way of supplying fish without destroying the life of the oceans.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #55 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 7:20am

]Grey, I think the way to handle that is to target the size of the NTZs to the tendency of the least mobile fish in an area to move. Even apparently sedentary fish will move a long way, especially if there is overcrowding in one direction and open niche (fished waters) in the other.

Still doesn't change the problem, FD. PS you should check out Nature online. The monk seal is going extinct in a marine reserve off Hawaii while it is thriving in adjacent areas open to fishing. They are resorting to culling sharks in the marine reserve!

For the fish that move further, you will have no choice but to rely on more traditional tools, and/or targetted protection of key areas like spawning grounds for species like tailor.

Shock horror - relying on traditional tools! You seem to have forgotten that you case for marine parks at the start of this thread has been based on false premises.

As for targetting 'spawning grounds' often it is not known where they are or they change from year to year.

When it comes to species like tuna, they may move a long way, but a lot of their territory is areas without significant catches of sedentary species, so you just need bigger NTZs in open ocean. This could even reduce the costs associated with catching them, by putting the NTZs in the 'middle' bits that are furthest from the ports.

A lot of the smaller tunas hug the coast eg Northern Bluefin. Yellowfin and Albacore hug the continental shelf - so your NTZ's, if they are to target these fish, will affect other fisheries.

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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #56 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 10:34am It is thus that the fish continue to dwindle. Fact is it doesn't matter what plan is agreed, just that one is. If the world can agree on one plan it can move on and if the plan doesn't work they can modify it or try a new direction.
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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #57 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 4:44pm

[]It is thus that the fish continue to dwindle.

Our (Australian) fish stocks are not 'continuing to dwindle' and I have provided ample evidence for that.

Fact is it doesn't matter what plan is agreed, just that one is. If the world can agree on one plan it can move on and if the plan doesn't work they can modify it or try a new direction.

Why would you want 'one plan' when some of the World's fish stocks are already well managed?

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #58 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 4:55pm

pjb05 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2011 at 4:44pm:

[]It is thus that the fish continue to dwindle.

Our (Australian) fish stocks are not 'continuing to dwindle' and I have provided ample evidence for that.

Fact is it doesn't matter what plan is agreed, just that one is. If the world can agree on one plan it can move on and if the plan doesn't work they can modify it or try a new direction.

Why would you want 'one plan' when some of the World's fish stocks are already well managed?

I disagree with that analysis completely.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0~2010~Chapter~...

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #59 - Sep 14^th, 2011 at 5:12pm

Grey wrote on Sep 14^th, 2011 at 4:55pm:

pjb05 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2011 at 4:44pm:

[]It is thus that the fish continue to dwindle.

Our (Australian) fish stocks are not 'continuing to dwindle' and I have provided ample evidence for that.

Fact is it doesn't matter what plan is agreed, just that one is. If the world can agree on one plan it can move on and if the plan doesn't work they can modify it or try a new direction.

Why would you want 'one plan' when some of the World's fish stocks are already well managed?

I disagree with that analysis completely.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/1370.0~2010~Chapter~...

I would be interested to know on what possible basis you could 'disagree completely' with my analysis? Are you basing that on the link you put up? For starters those stats show a distinct drop in overfished species in recent years. It is also misleading to assess overfishing only by the number of overfished stocks. Some species tend to be vulnerable becauce of their biology, eg some sharks (slow reproduction). In the case of the Southern Bluefin a lot of the fishing pressure occurs outside our waters. The stocks of STB would be in a much better state if the Japanese weren't fraudulently exceeding their quota.

On top of that they are only refering to Commonwealth managed fish stocks. Most of our catch occurs in State waters (which have been subject to a reduction in fishing effort). One other point is that the status of stocks is not fully known and the number of overfished species may change merely because more data become available.

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