Australian Politics Forum - Almost half of our species fully or overfished

pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #90 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 2:21pm

[]No PJ. I am suggesting we go with the best available advice. A well designed experiment would involve repeatedly setting up marine parks that you fully expect to not work very well to prove to yourself (and the scientific community) that they do not work very well.

Is that what you want?

Thats what were getting! Ie the case of marine parks mushrooming all around Australia against the best advice of fisheries scientists.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53256 At my desk.	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #91 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm No it isn't.
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pjb05 Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1404 Gender:	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #92 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:39pm freediver wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm: No it isn't. Thats a brilliant retort - looks like you have put a lot of thought into that!
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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #93 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:40pm

Quote:

do you really think 'trying something new' is a reasonable justification?

Absolutely! Look you obviously make your plan, based on the best 'figuring' the evidence suggests. But at the end of the day, when you're dealing with complexity, there are more variables than you can poke a stick at. The adage is...

'When one thing doesn't work, try something else.'

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #94 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:53pm

[] Quote:

do you really think 'trying something new' is a reasonable justification?

Absolutely! Look you obviously make your plan, based on the best 'figuring' the evidence suggests. But at the end of the day, when you're dealing with complexity, there are more variables than you can poke a stick at. The adage is...

'When one thing doesn't work, try something else.' [/quote]

What isn't working Grey? The evidence is our fisheries management is working! As for the few remaining minor problems it's not likely that marine parks are the answer. You also seem oblivious to the fact that there is a considerable cost to marine parks. Your just ignoring all that and going straight to the 'solution'.

It's Leninistic - no different to saying capitalism had had problems so we need to go over to communism.

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« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2011 at 6:09pm by pjb05 »

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #95 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:12pm

pjb05 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:39pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 2:34pm:

No it isn't.

Thats a brilliant retort - looks like you have put a lot of thought into that!

Would you expect me to put any more though than you put into your post? Let me guess, you post whatever stupid crap pops into your head but if people disagree they have to post a thesis? You spend as much time attacking the credibility of the scientific community as you do pretending they are on your side.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #96 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:32pm

Well speaking of stupid crap you said this regarding marine parks and groper:

"Fortunately there are no fences in the ocean. Fish don't pay much attention to lines on maps".

Previously you said:

"No PJ. The converse is true. There are very few there because you can spear them. At least, there are none in the easily accessible locations. Just over the border they are everywhere. There are so many that when you get used to spearing on the QLD side of the boarder then jump to the other side it is pretty difficult because they are everywhere and they distract you. There is a clear and sudden change at the border".

Looks like someone can't even keep track of their stupid crap.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53256 At my desk.	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #97 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:37pm There is no contradiction there PJ. As I explained, the fishermen do pay attention to lines on maps, even if the fish don't.
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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #98 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:41pm

freediver wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

There is no contradiction there PJ. As I explained, the fishermen do pay attention to lines on maps, even if the fish don't.

No, you were alluding to a spillover effect. The comment was in reply to my point that with marine parks managing groper you will just wind up with healthy numbers in the park surrounded by depleted areas where spearfishing is allowed.

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Grey

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #99 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:02pm

pjb05 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 3:53pm:

[] Quote:

do you really think 'trying something new' is a reasonable justification?

Quote:

Absolutely! Look you obviously make your plan, based on the best 'figuring' the evidence suggests. But at the end of the day, when you're dealing with complexity, there are more variables than you can poke a stick at. The adage is...

'When one thing doesn't work, try something else.'

What isn't working Grey? The evidence is our fisheries management is working! As for the few remaining minor problems it's not likely that marine parks are the answer. You also seem oblivious to the fact that there is a considerable cost to marine parks. Your just ignoring all that and going straight to the 'solution'.

It's Leninistic - no different to saying capitalism had had problems so we need to go over to communism.

When the reducing the size of the catch, both individuals and numbers, has gone on so long you call it 'traditional' and fishermen leave the industry in droves, how can you say, 'it's working'?

On the other hand when you yourself say, " with marine parks managing groper you will just wind up with healthy numbers in the park". How can you say parks don't work? Clearly if numbers reach 'healthy' (ie optimum) levels in the park, some fish will leave for less crowded environments.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #100 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:14pm

[When the reducing the size of the catch, both individuals and numbers, has gone on so long you call it 'traditional' and fishermen leave the industry in droves, how can you say, 'it's working'?

It's not a sign of failure that fishing is relatively unrestricted in the early stages and undergoes consolidation at a later stage. It's a normal, well understood progression. It's like a mining excercise to start with. A later consolidation does not say anything against the long term sustainability of the fishery.

On the other hand when you yourself say, " with marine parks managing groper you will just wind up with healthy numbers in the park". How can you say parks don't work? Clearly if numbers reach 'healthy' (ie optimum) levels in the park, some fish will leave for less crowded environments.

Wouldn't it be preferable to have healthy numbers everywhere? FD admitted that is the case in NSW. He also admitted there is no such spill over by saying they are depleted in Qld (in fact a clear distinction at the border). I can't say you have been paying much attention to what has been said here.

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freediver

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #101 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:37pm

pjb05 wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:41pm:

freediver wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 7:37pm:

There is no contradiction there PJ. As I explained, the fishermen do pay attention to lines on maps, even if the fish don't.

No, you were alluding to a spillover effect. The comment was in reply to my point that with marine parks managing groper you will just wind up with healthy numbers in the park surrounded by depleted areas where spearfishing is allowed.

So what? Isn't that better than depleted numbers everywhere?

By the way PJ, the evidence is that you get more fish outside the park as well, not just inside.

Do you think there are fewer gropers in QLD because of all the displaced effort from NSW spearfishermen? Or did you no think that far ahead?

Quote:

It's not a sign of failure that fishing is relatively unrestricted in the early stages and undergoes consolidation at a later stage. It's a normal, well understood progression.

It is a progression you had great difficulty coming to terms with earlier in the thread.

Quote:

He also admitted there is no such spill over by saying they are depleted in Qld

You really should stick to what I actually say PJ.

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« Last Edit: Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:43pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #102 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:43pm

So what? Isn't that better than depleted numbers everywhere?

Don't be so obtuse FD - the NSW case shows all you need to do is ban spearfishing and commercial fishing for groper to have healthy numbers everywhere.

By the way PJ, the evidence is that you get more fish outside the park as well, not just inside.

Then why did you say there was a clear distiction at the border?

PS: if displaced effort is a problem then why not just ban spearfishing for groper in Qld as well?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53256 At my desk.	Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished Reply #103 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:44pm Quote: the NSW case shows all you need to do is ban spearfishing and commercial fishing LOL - 'all' you have to do, says the man complaining about draconian restrictions.
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pjb05

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Re: Almost half of our species fully or overfished
Reply #104 - Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:49pm

freediver wrote on Sep 18^th, 2011 at 8:44pm:

Quote:

the NSW case shows all you need to do is ban spearfishing and commercial fishing

LOL - 'all' you have to do, says the man complaining about draconian restrictions.

It's not draconian when we are talking about a single species of conservation concern.

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