Australian Politics Forum - Greens backdown on Carbon price

Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #30 - May 27^th, 2011 at 9:30am

progressiveslol wrote on May 26^th, 2011 at 10:44pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 26^th, 2011 at 5:15pm:

I think the problem that we seem to have on here with so many people is that they either live now or have grown up completely sheltered from how difficult life is and running a budget.

Those people tend to then think that their bubble if you like, of friends and work colleagues are the 'norm' and that everyone lives like they do.

The reality, for so many of us, is that people do live quite differently, run tight budgets, have to make sacrifices and have debt, car loans, mortgages etc.

Now for the cost of living to increase across the board with a carbon tax - it is just not supportable and those who think it is a good idea don't seem to understand the strain people are under these days.

To hit people with a tax to fix climate change is one thing - to hit people with a tax which everyone admits will do nothing for climate change is just idiocy.

We don't need a carbon tax, and if you look at the pollings, we don't want a carbon tax.

I would like people to realize, particularly those who have led an easy life bankrolled by their parents and in cruise mode, to realize that there are a lot of people not able to sit with the luxury that they take for granted and who will be badly affected by this disastrous policy.

In the end, the ultimate goal (you will have to decide what you think it is, this is my interpretation) is to have it so people cant afford the extras. The people on budgets will be the new poor, I mean real poor. The middle class will be the working poor and the rich will be well off. The rich of the rich will go on as if nothing happened.

This all boils down to environmentalism and the ultimate goal of environmentalism, is what you will get out of the climate change scam. They couldnt do it by protesting, yelling or jumping in front of a bull dozer, but they will get to their goal with climate change.

There is a lot of truth in that.
My point really is that a lot of people on here have lived a pretty sheltered existence, bankrolled through a pretty cruisy life.

They have no idea what it is like to struggle on a budget and how bad their ideas or policies they support will whack the rest of us.

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freediver

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #31 - May 28^th, 2011 at 9:52am

Maqqa wrote on May 25^th, 2011 at 11:46am:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/labor-rebuffs-greens-on...

THE GREENS have backed away from their hardline position on a high starting price for the carbon tax, conceding they won't get the price they want in negotiations with Labor.

As the multi-party climate change commission prepares to meet over the weekend to hammer out a deal, Greens leader Bob Brown has conceded his party will accept a lower starting price for the tax than it believes necessary to ensure a start to the transition from coal to gas and renewable energy.

The stance is at odds with the Greens' decision to vote down Kevin Rudd's emissions trading scheme in 2009 because it was too weak, and comes as Energy Minister Martin Ferguson slapped down the minor party by declaring the coal industry has a bright future.

When Greens deputy Leader Christine Milne said last week a carbon price of more than $40 a tonne would be needed to shift Australia's reliance on coal-fired power to cleaner energy, the Gillard government responded that the starting price would be `well south” of that.

Sounds sensible to me. It will leave the Greens with something to campaign for next election without them being seen as undermining legislation. They will get the credit for the carbon tax (it is their policy) without losing their political niche.

An added bonus is that it should keep the tax on the agenda as people push for it to be raised rather than switching to a trading scheme.

It does not make sense to go straight to a price that is high enough to force a change to renewables. There is a lot we can do to reduce our emissions for a much lower price.

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Maqqa

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #32 - May 28^th, 2011 at 10:12am

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 9:52am:

Maqqa wrote on May 25^th, 2011 at 11:46am:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/labor-rebuffs-greens-on...

THE GREENS have backed away from their hardline position on a high starting price for the carbon tax, conceding they won't get the price they want in negotiations with Labor.

As the multi-party climate change commission prepares to meet over the weekend to hammer out a deal, Greens leader Bob Brown has conceded his party will accept a lower starting price for the tax than it believes necessary to ensure a start to the transition from coal to gas and renewable energy.

The stance is at odds with the Greens' decision to vote down Kevin Rudd's emissions trading scheme in 2009 because it was too weak, and comes as Energy Minister Martin Ferguson slapped down the minor party by declaring the coal industry has a bright future.

When Greens deputy Leader Christine Milne said last week a carbon price of more than $40 a tonne would be needed to shift Australia's reliance on coal-fired power to cleaner energy, the Gillard government responded that the starting price would be `well south” of that.

Sounds sensible to me. It will leave the Greens with something to campaign for next election without them being seen as undermining legislation. They will get the credit for the carbon tax (it is their policy) without losing their political niche.

An added bonus is that it should keep the tax on the agenda as people push for it to be raised rather than switching to a trading scheme.

It does not make sense to go straight to a price that is high enough to force a change to renewables. There is a lot we can do to reduce our emissions for a much lower price.

The Greens vote have already plummeted from 12% to 7% - 41.6% decrease (as I was corrected Cool

)

So they have little to gain other than a moral victory but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+

So they have to increase it - they will be decimated either way because voters will know it will go to $40 in a few years

In addition Labor wants $20 and the Greens wants $40 ie a 50% increase

This is like saying the GST will start out at 12% but will increase to 24% - can you image the outcry if this happens?

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freediver

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #33 - May 28^th, 2011 at 10:30am

Quote:

but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+

What does he actually say Maqqa? From the opening post:

Quote:

When Greens deputy Leader Christine Milne said last week a carbon price of more than $40 a tonne would be needed to shift Australia's reliance on coal-fired power to cleaner energy

Do you see the difference between this and a claim of 'no change'?

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price Reply #34 - May 28^th, 2011 at 10:34am There isn't a need for a carbon tax or ETS in Australia. It has no value whatsoever. Things are ok as they are, locally. The problem is with India and China, not Aus.
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Maqqa

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #35 - May 28^th, 2011 at 10:44am

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:30am:

Quote:

but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+

What does he actually say Maqqa? From the opening post:

Quote:

When Greens deputy Leader Christine Milne said last week a carbon price of more than $40 a tonne would be needed to shift Australia's reliance on coal-fired power to cleaner energy

Do you see the difference between this and a claim of 'no change'?

(1) I am making the $40+ reference from the Greens website

(2) The whole argument about $40+ is about setting up a tax, which is suppose to reduce Aust emissions which according to lefties is supposed to reduce global temperature

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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creep

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #36 - May 28^th, 2011 at 10:52am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

There isn't a need for a carbon tax or ETS in Australia.

It has no value whatsoever.

Things are ok as they are, locally.

The problem is with India and China, not Aus.

So true
And with the push for China to be able to increase its emissions then it highlights the uselessness of the Co2 tax.
The scaremongering scam artist Tim Flannery comments that "If the world as a whole cut all emissions tomorrow the average temperature of the planet is not going to drop in several hundred years, perhaps as much as 1000 years because the system is overburdened with CO2 that has to be absorbed ... "

So China increases it's Co2 by more than what Australia could ever possibly do and it will make not one shred of difference!

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Maqqa

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #37 - May 28^th, 2011 at 11:26am

creep wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:52am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

There isn't a need for a carbon tax or ETS in Australia.

It has no value whatsoever.

Things are ok as they are, locally.

The problem is with India and China, not Aus.

So true
And with the push for China to be able to increase its emissions then it highlights the uselessness of the Co2 tax.
The scaremongering scam artist Tim Flannery comments that "If the world as a whole cut all emissions tomorrow the average temperature of the planet is not going to drop in several hundred years, perhaps as much as 1000 years because the system is overburdened with CO2 that has to be absorbed ... "

So China increases it's Co2 by more than what Australia could ever possibly do and it will make not one shred of difference!

China emits in 10 days what Australia is hoping to cut in 10 years

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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freediver

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #38 - May 28^th, 2011 at 11:28am

Maqqa wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:44am:

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:30am:

Quote:

but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+

What does he actually say Maqqa? From the opening post:

Quote:

When Greens deputy Leader Christine Milne said last week a carbon price of more than $40 a tonne would be needed to shift Australia's reliance on coal-fired power to cleaner energy

Do you see the difference between this and a claim of 'no change'?

(1) I am making the $40+ reference from the Greens website

(2) The whole argument about $40+ is about setting up a tax, which is suppose to reduce Aust emissions which according to lefties is supposed to reduce global temperature

So what did Brown actually say?

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Maqqa

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #39 - May 28^th, 2011 at 11:53am

freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 11:28am:

So what did Brown actually say?

http://bob-brown.greensmps.org.au/content/greencast/senator-bob-brown-doorstop-2...

at 8:57

At 10.34 it's funny how he said referenced the carbon tax as "the whole world is going that way" and mention 3 countries

Sweden has a Carbon Tax of $100 - is that we want? $100????

it's not difficult to google "bob brown $40 carbon"

he mentioned this back in March 2011

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/greens-leader-bob-brown-flags-carbon-t...

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53500 At my desk.	Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price Reply #40 - May 28^th, 2011 at 12:51pm So when you posted this: Quote: but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+ You actually meant something completely different?
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Maqqa Gold Member Offline 14% - that low?! Posts: 16000	Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price Reply #41 - May 28^th, 2011 at 1:41pm freediver wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 12:51pm: So when you posted this: Quote: but if you believe what Bob Brown says - there would be no change until it hits $40+ You actually meant something completely different? I just posted the reference
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creep

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Re: Greens backdown on Carbon price
Reply #42 - May 28^th, 2011 at 4:40pm

Maqqa wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 11:26am:

creep wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:52am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 28^th, 2011 at 10:34am:

There isn't a need for a carbon tax or ETS in Australia.

It has no value whatsoever.

Things are ok as they are, locally.

The problem is with India and China, not Aus.

So true
And with the push for China to be able to increase its emissions then it highlights the uselessness of the Co2 tax.
The scaremongering scam artist Tim Flannery comments that "If the world as a whole cut all emissions tomorrow the average temperature of the planet is not going to drop in several hundred years, perhaps as much as 1000 years because the system is overburdened with CO2 that has to be absorbed ... "

So China increases it's Co2 by more than what Australia could ever possibly do and it will make not one shred of difference!

China emits in 10 days what Australia is hoping to cut in 10 years

Yes it's laughable isn't it.
Here have the scaremongering gullies wanting a tax on Australians as that will save the world.
And then at the same time they are pushing for China to increase their Co2 emissions.

And then there's India!!!

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